Interviewer: Beth Stelson
Interviewee: Ruth Frisch Dealy
Category: Visual Arts
Genre: Painting
Length in time: 00:32:42

[00:00:00]

Beth Stelson: Okay, just so we can, what I've kind of been instructed to do, is, just so we can just get an idea of your entire life, if you can just, kind of, tell me about your childhood, I guess. I know that sounds, I know that seems like, oh my.... what has that to do with anything, but, that just like... We're trying to get a collective story. So just like...

Ruth Frisch Dealy: I'm always a little... I'm thinking what vector we're headed towards 'cause it could be... See like...

[00:00:28]

BS: Who knows where were going to head.

RFD: Exactly, 'cause there's so many different versions of one childhood. You know what I mean? You could go... I was born in kind of academia in Cambridge. My mother's a biologist. My father's a nuclear physicist. My mother's from an immigrant, Russian Jewish family. So she was kind of like a hyper-achiever. She went from the Bronx to Smith-- one of only two Jews at Smith. And then was the first woman, one of two first women at Columbia Medical School. Just kind of that old story of achievement. My father was sort of better off 'cause he's from like twenty-three generations of rabbis. And his mother died real young, he was an only child, of Hodgkin's disease. So, when she died, his father had a nervous breakdown. So he was kind of left to a bunch of aunts to raise. So they were kind of all about career all the time. You know, that was their whole focus. I was put in, like, private school and dropped out by the time I was in the first grade. I just wouldn't go to Buckingham so I went to Cambridge public schools. And I didn't know I wanted to be an artist at all. I had no sense of it. I was just suppose to go onto Radcliff which was, you know, part of Harvard. It was all kind of prearranged in their heads. And then, by the time high school hit, I went to the Radcliff interview. You know, I got 800 college score 'cause it was, like, flash carded. You just did. You were just trained to do that. And I just sat their in the interview and said if I go here I'll kill myself. And that was news to me. And then I didn't say anything to my parents and I just got on the waiting list. I thought they'd go crazy. They were calling everyone they knew and stuff. So I came to RISD with a friend who was looking at it. They wouldn't even consider art school.

[00:02:28]

RFD: And I took the test when she did and I didn't get in. So I went to BU for a year which was the back up. Everyone went to BU for a year in those days. In, like, lower-loop cost economics or something. Then I went to Hickock Secretarial School which guaranteed graduation. And they called me in and said, "Miss Frisch, like, sue us. You know, we're not graduating you." So I went back to RISD and then went straight through and it never even felt that natural to me while I was doing it.

[00:03:02]

BS: What do you mean by natural?

RFD: Well, it didn't feel like this was what I was always meant to do. It was like backing in to it, you know. It wasn't until about thirty that it suddenly hit that this is what I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

00:03:20 BS: Tell me about your experiences at RISD. Like, what was it like to be a student there. I noticed on your website you were a student there and you also taught there.

RFD: Yeah, its weird. Like the part I love is like a trade school with these old, kind of old, kooks you know teaching you how to render a derby which was so unlike how I was raised 'cause it was so from my parents values without meaning at all, you know. And I loved that. And the part I didn't like, I think, was the part it was already starting to get that faux-arty. You know, the sixties came and there was a lot of pretensions. And I was really political there. I was part of a group called Concerned Students which wanted basically need blind applications and a lot of porosity with the community. Its so funny. There was this money from Lyndon Johnson to set up, like, it was called OEO [Office of Economic Opportunity] money to set up stuff in the community. And they finally had to hire a black dean at RISD. It was an all white school based on basically textile money. So a lot of the money is like slavery money. And they got this black dean who was really pompous and pretentious, too. And he figured since we had a housing project. The poorest housing project is called Hartford Ave-- still is. They've torn down Hartford Towers which were a symbol of total poverty. And so he said we could set up a school there. And he never... And he figured the housing project was black. It was, like, all white. You know, 'cause it was like poor textile workers who were dumped here from Canada and France-- you know, French Canadian and Irish and stuff. So, with this money that was suppose to be for minority entitlement, we set up this thing, and then he almost died when he found out it was all white kids. You know what I mean. It didn't matter. It was like reverse racism. Because it didn't matter actually.

[00:05:22]

RFD: One of the kids lived in a dumpster. He had just come back from Vietnam. And so, that was my first real taste 'cause I was teaching them. Only like five or four were really interested. And they weren't going any where. It was like teaching somebody in the inside of your jail cell. This looked like this, this looked like that. So in those days, Rhode Island's so small, so cool. There was a really cool Jewish governor, Leech [Licht]. What was his first name? Governor Leech [Licht]. And I was driving home from there in a borrowed car because we didn't have a car. Just parked the car and go up into the state house and his door was open 'cause he was working late and I go "Can I see you?" and he goes "Sure sit down." And I go, "I'm teaching these kids and there's no chance of them going to college, and I'm tired of it. It's like telling them how small, you know, their cage is going to be." And he said, "Oh, why don't I call RISD. Where do you want them to go." And I went, "RISD." And he goes, "Watch me call them and bust their ass about taxes." So he picked up the phone and and we got all four of them into RISD. You know, 'cause they... 'Cause it's all old school stuff.

[00:06:29]

BS: You just pull strings, kind of.

RFD: Well, it's just, like, you just scared them. And he understood what I was saying perfectly. And one of them, it turned out, after we got him in we realized he didn't have a high school degree. But that could be fixed, too. We got a GED the next day. I don't know how. And one of them is Gloria Dalesandro. She's the sound woman for Steven Spielberg in Hollywood. She went to RISD always and she comes back and visits. With her... She's a lesbian. Which is, like, totally, like, that's not the culture either, you know. Comes back with her professor, Berkeley Professor girlfriend, you know. Just visits the projects, you know. And sometimes they come, you know, see me. And the other one became... Michael Cafferty was probably the most talented and probably the most complicated of them. He became... Because he had a college degree he became a clerk in the judge system here. So he has, like, a job with benefits and stuff like that. And then Ray DeBois, the other one, became... he owns an antique store. They're all really successful. It's like, totally weird. So that's how I got my first taste of community organization. And I don't think its ever been so gloriously successful. The first taste was the most, you know, satisfying. And then I just went through. And then I didn't really excel or anything, particularly shine. And then, in time... My husband went to Brown. He wanted to be a writer. So neither of us had any skills at all. Money making skills. Probably the theme of our lives. So, I was a dish washer and he was a house painter. And so he got a job as a social worker because our neighbors knocked on the door and just said, "Why don't you apply for this." So I needed to go to graduate school to teach and so I...

[00:08:29]

RFD: The only graduate school in painting, that offered an MSA in painting was RISD and I applied and I didn't get in. And so I thought about that. And so the first day of school I just came, and I just set up a studio in the graduate building. And then the teacher came up, Robert Hammond, and said, "You didn't get in." And I went, "I don't have anywhere else to go. What are you going to do? Call the police?" And he was like, he was like an old slavic. He was wonderful. You know, "Just stay, what the hell." You know, so then in a couple of weeks I said I needed, you know, a scholarship. So, oh my. Eugene is such a... He was like, "That's disgusting." But I got a teaching assistantship, too. And so... Now they're memories are all kind of different. Like "We always knew you were talented." You know. Except him, he remembers it. You know. So that's...

[00:09:21]

BS: So it pays to be persistent.

RFD: Yes. So that's my only theme. So, like, just be like a dog with a bone, you know. And now I have kids and its much more painful, this world now. Like, I think, it had much more space in it. Watching them go through things. Its harder for me watching them. I have two girls making their way. And the sexism that was always there is a little more subtle now. And maybe hidden 'cause people are embarrassed to be so sexist, and stuff. I hate watching them negotiate all those shoals. You're more vulnerable when you have kids than anything else 'cause I never felt that vulnerable myself, you know. So that's the basics.

[00:10:07]

BS: All right. Can you talk at all more about your experiences teaching at RISD, maybe or maybe how it changed, like, as from a student to when you were...

RFD: Its completely different 'cause its, like, teaching art's really... there's no... Teaching painting... like how the hell do you do that? You know?

[00:10:28]

BS: I have no idea.

RFD: And that's like.... The way you do it is... I really hate it 'cause its, like, real vigilance. That's what it is. Like, its like... There's this quote in the Torah, like, "The world turns on the breath of the children reading the torah." And its like, its like with a painting you just hold your breath and, you know, watch them paint. But you have to be completely vigilant, you know. And I found it exhausting. Like, I'd much rather have a remedial job and then get to paint. So, I was on the part time faculty and RISD is really gross with their.... Your not in the union and they make sure you don't get enough hours to be in the union. So you never get benefits. You never, so. I actually do better now that I'm a little older selling and stuff than I would as faculty, but... I think the real thing is how labor intensive it is for, you know... There's a real commitment just like painting. So, it like, if you have kids, you'd have that, painting... It's like having children all over again, you know. You can't mail that one in, you know. You know what I mean?

[00:11:35]

BS: Well, not entirely. I don't have kids. But I can imagine.

RFD: Yeah, its really, like... And people who do it badly make me furious 'cause, oh course, by now, I think its the most important thing in the world. So, its like, you'd never have a surgeon go, "Hey, you know, just cut right about here-- it doesn't really matter." People teach painting like its not totally exact. Except you really do have to be right on the money, you know. So...

[00:12:05]

BS: Do you ever feel there's, like, a disconnect between, like, the schools like Brown and RISD and the rest of the community. I know you found that when you were, like, working with other students, and stuff like that.

RFD: Oh, at Brown, I'm furious at Brown 'cause Hope High School, two of the poorest schools and worst performing schools in the system, Nathan Bishop Middle School where my kids went and Hope High where my oldest daughter went are in the shadow of Brown. And I'm not mad at RISD right now 'cause they've adopted the arts school. And Brown has this new drama school and they could've adopted, you know, Hope High drama school. You can't even get in to see Ruth Simmons, you know. I'm really pissed off. Yeah. I think Brown is, kind of, pulled a circle around itself. And it really has some hairy issues that it inherited. Like Fox Point was a really thriving Portuguese, Cape Verdean neighborhood and Brown really did permeate the housing. But that's, like, kind of nobody's fault. you know what I mean? Where are they gonna... But the way they did it was always visibly hard core. 'Cause I'd be part of the groups to preserve, you know, the community and stuff. And they've really driven the housing up. So they've really broken apart the Fox Point community which was really a vibrant community. So, yeah, I'm kind of really unhappy with them.

[00:12:26]

BS: You said you're always part of the groups to preserve it. How have you... Just kind of talk about your experiences there, maybe?

RFD: I really have tried to create different districts. Like I worked on AS220 to create the downtown arts district, and stuff. And the things we'd run into would always be... Like actually, down town we'd run into Johnson and Wales-- that's a really clear example in their interests. And they're a little better about it. But its really hard to come up against, like, tax-exempt realtors. Basically, that's what they are-- Johnson and Wales. So, they're real attributes of the community, but they're real hard to come up against, you know. And I have more ins at RISD so you can dialogue better, but I don't.... When you're an outsider from Brown you can't get in, you know. And so. So I'm kind of, yeah, unhappy right now. I'm still working on it though, you know.

[00:14:29]

BS: mhhm. I was looking on your website and just trying to get more of an idea, like, how you paint, like, who you are in general 'cause your name just came up. And you had this series, "In the Land of the Blind" that... And it sounded like you actually lost your sight while you were painting it.

RFD: Yeah, I did.

[00:14:50]

BS: Could you just talk about that and kind of your experience, like, just how it maybe affected your art, your painting. I know you can see the difference, but...

RFD: Well, I was really terrified, and I didn't know what to do with... You know I was just home and the neighbor rings the bell and said you really just have to keep on keeping on. And so a bunch of artists would come, two friends, and stretch paintings for me. And I just, kind of, feel where it was on the painting. But when it was over and my sight was restored, like, I realized, like, the ones I did blind, they kind of had become, sort of, instant abstractions-- expressionists, you know what I mean. And I was really surprised the quality of them-- that the quality was still there. That's one of them there, behind you. And I think what I learned is that, kind of, art doesn't come form your hand or your eye but some other instinct that's really strong.

[00:15:54]

BS: Kind of just innate within you.

RFD: Yeah, some kind of, you know, innate-- a drive, you know, that's really stronger than you. If you ever think I'm being too short or to long or....

[00:16:12]

BS: There's no direction to this interview at all. Its just pretty much...

RFD: I know, its amazing me. Its just so much work for, like, a sunday morning. I'm like, what?

[00:16:20]

BS: But... what would you like to talk about? Is there anything that you would like to share?

RFD: No, no its fine. I'm just saying, but I'm just saying, but I'm just so amazed, like, its like woo-- that's like a whole biography. You know, start in the cradle, you know.

[00:16:38]

BS: Well... I'm not entirely sure where to go from here. You see, there's so many things that we could, kind of, revisit.

RFD: I'm having the same problem 'cause I don't know what, where...

[00:16:50]

BS: Just choose one, and we'll go from there. What would you like to talk about.

RFD: The way my mind works, I'm like, what's her... I'm always thinking, like, what's your thesis. What's....

[00:17:04]

BS: There's no thesis.

RFD: I know you keep saying that. Its like blowing my mind. How are you going to write a paper based on...

[00:17:10]

BS: There's no paper. We're just going to have a transcript. So.

RFD: I guess I just love Providence. I mean, that's what it really comes down to. Like, I really found a real home. Whether its...

[00:17:21]

BS: What makes it a home?

RFD: Its all those things coming together, you know what I mean? Its like, its like those dialogues, I can have them out loud-- all the ones I would care about like politics and political organizing and preserving buildings and having children that are accountable to people other than me, you know? And having it doable, you know.

[00:17:50]

BS: Oh what, sorry.

RFD: Having it doable. Feeling like I can pick up the phone or walk into somebody's office or push somebody and get pushed back. Like, the hands on feeling about it. I think, like, when you paint you just have a sense you can handle stuff. And then if, as a woman, like I didn't think about myself as a feminist or something. It never really hit me, thank God how the field is totally sexist, the field of painting.

[00:18:17]

BS: Really?

RFD: Oh yeah, but thank God I didn't think of that or I would have been really discouraged.

[00:18:20]

BS: See I would have thought it would have totally have been....

RFD: Oh no, its like The Whiz and Jackson Pollock and those are heroes. And they're real macho heroes, you know. So, its a hugely sexist field. Its really hard for a woman to raise. Even to get paid, basically. But its funny 'cause it empowers you hugely to make stuff, you know, and after a while you're just... in spite of yourself you use up your own space and take up as much space as you need. And you learn that. And then being in this town, its the right size for me. Like, you know, if I really wanted to make something happen. The kids at Hope High, their department wanted to go to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And there's no money for it so, like. And they wanted... So you just go around to people, and me and this other woman just went around and asked for money and we got like 107, 000. Sent them... they got to go to London, go to Globe Theater and get to... You know. You can just sort of make it happen. The parents were like, "Okay, where's the bus?" And bus company gives you the bus. I mean its kind of, its like, doable. Its not things you can't really attain. So, you can actually change things and wake up in the morning and knowing you changed something, you know?

[0019:44]

BS: And you don't think you could get that from someplace like Boston or Cambridge where you grew up?

RFD: No, in Cambridge you'd write a thesis about why you'd felt you need it. You'd have an overview study. They'd give money for the overview study for the professor who never did anything. You know, the kids would never see the money, you know. Or, you know, maybe in fairness, in Cambridge somebody would get it, but it wouldn't be... It wouldn't be open handed. It wouldn't be, like... Rhode Island's like "Here, take it all. Just don't bother me," you know. And then you just take it and run, you know. I hate academia. I guess I should tell you that.

[00:20:21]

BS: Fair enough.

RFD: 'Cause I grew up.... I mean, that's were the claustrophobia was, you know. So, I guess you're just talking to someone who doesn't like academia, like, that concept of doing it, you know.

[00:20:34]

BS: Was kind of coming to RISD and just in general, was that ever, kind of, I guess, rebellion against it.

RFD: Yeah, totally. Oh my God, my mother still held out hope. She still vows that I'll be... "You're so good at biology. You could be a bio..." She hates chemists. They're lower. Like, "You could even be a biochemist." Its like, no. I would argue with her so much. My brother's a physicist and he just discovered the top quark, you know, in Chicago.

[00:21:02]

BS: The top what?

RFD: The top quark-- the heaviest particle in...

[00:21:06]

BS: Oh.

RFD: My sister-in-law is an astrophysicist. You know what I mean? It's just like... it's still.... no... it's still a rebellion. It's weird. And, after a while, when the rebellion was gone I didn't mean to have it hurt anyone still, but it still hurt them, you know. And she'll say stuff like, "I don't like art. I hope we don't have to see any art." You know? Like yeah. 'Cause its just, like, really hard for her, yeah.

[00:21:31]

BS: Why do you think...

RFD: I think her idea climbing out of... Thinking its like a ladder, you know.

[00:21:36]

BS: You mean, like raising from the immigrant, kind of.

RFD: Yeah. But that's really true of a lot of parent's kids at RISD. The kid next to me, in the studio next to me, his father was... His grandmother owned a bar in a mining town in Pennsylvania and his father actually made it to be a business man. And he'd always come and say, "Jeff, Jeff, there's got to be a ladder. There's got to be steps. Where are the steps?" And I'd hear from the next studio wall, you know, "There must be a ladder." And finally, its like, "Dad there's no ladder." You know. And I mean, its just really hard. And sometimes you have to, like freshmen orientation and stuff... Its really sad, the parents like, "At what point do they, are they full artists. And will they, you know..." And its like, oh, your kids are in for, you know, a hell of a life, you know. 'Cause it isn't that... I mean, you really are free falling, kind of, a lot more than you think. And the only thing to protect you is, like, is your ability to survive like that. But some kids... I'll go back to a reunion... Went back to a reunion and out of eighteen painting majors only two people are still painting. And the class, you know...

[00:22:50]

BS: Its just so hard to make it?

RFD: So hard, yeah to maintain it, yeah. And its not by talent. The most talented ones aren't the ones. Its just whoever has the thickest skin, kind of. So its a really interesting view of education 'cause, its kind of. I always think Rhode Island's motto is, "Like, what eva." In the end its just what ever you can handle. So do you have any questions so...

[00:23:25]

BS: I'm trying to think. I came here and was going to kind of wing it, to be honest. But I have a couple of things. You say here, this off of the website quoting you, "I try to paint directly from my eye to my hand without the shadow of editorial opinion falling in between." And what exactly...

RFD: I mean that.

[00:23:49]

BS: What?

RFD: Yeah, like. Okay, lets say I'm looking at, like, you, you know. And I'm painting you. I'm not going to... I'm told there are all these versions on how to paint people. There's this thing like a T-zone where your eyes, your nose, your mouth-- they use that in advertising where people focus on that and then do the head around it. There's all these opinions like when you're taught to paint trees in grammar school, like, they tell you to make the trunks black, or in some schools they have you make them brown. But you stick with that color the rest of your life. You know what I mean? And when you really look at a tree, you'd be surprised how many colors, you know, are really there, you know and... So I try to look for the first time without all those prejudices like college rule, editorial-- where you want it to end up a certain way. Its kind of the opposite of advertising. Like you don't have a spin on it at all. So that would be what that means.

[00:24:46]

BS: So editorial opinion isn't, like, political opinion, or anything like that. Its just, you try to...

RFD: It could be that, too. I mean, it could be any one of those things that skew the response to just the first... Like, have you ever walked up to somebody so close, like, you can kind of see their pores in their face and stuff. And your like, "ewwl, another human being." Like, "uegck," you know. Its like too much at the moment. Like that sense of running into things where you just have that gut response to it, you know. Like sometimes you'll think you really like somebody, and, like, you'll be right next to them and they'll seem really real to you or too real. Or you'll be eating something that seems too much. You know, like, any one of those kind of things you're really hit with the fullness of it, you know.

[00:25:33]

BS: And that's what you try to, kind of...

RFD: Yeah, have happen every time, yeah.

[00:25:41]

BS: So what's... How do you think your style developed? 'Cause I look at it, and its pretty much like nothing I've ever seen, to be honest.

RFD: You see, I think I'm a really realistic painter. I'll show you a blind self-portrait too. I just did this from looking that's really what I did. I know that [walked away from mic to pull out canvasses]. You know what, actually I have it at home. I don't know.... [inaudible] I had a studio here off Main Street, cross from the library actually, you know, and its like I was just sitting and like in front of the mirror in the studio and didn't know what to paint. And then I realized I could sort of paint myself in a way that you really feel yourself. Where people could back away from the canvas, they're not going to enter it-- its not going to be real pleasant. But, like, that's a real presence-- your going to back off-- your going to feel very like, you can enjoy her, you know, sitting there. And its just called, like, "The Morning After." And actually I showed it at a show and this home for battered women called up and said, "Do you need to talk?" and I'm like "No." Its like Sojourner House. No its like... Which is nice about Rhode Island that they call, you know. And I go "No, its psychic." And they went "Well, that's battering too." And I'm like, "No, No," you know. But its just, like, I think that's, like, kind of my break through painting. I think I painted in a way that I wanted some weight to it. So you could feel things that you'd leave, you know.

[00:27:48]

RFD: I think I have a very vague vocabulary about it 'cause its not a word vocabulary, like. But I think its just I'm interested in the weight of things, or the cost of things, or the... Not, not... So that's what I mean without editorial opinion. Like, I'm not telling you you should like her or you should feel sorry for her, you should emulate her, you should, you know, reject her.

[00:28:19]

BS: You should just see it as what it is.

RFD: Just, yeah. Like, what you see is what you get, kind of. You know what I mean then? Its kind of like where, like, Plato where he goes the quality of "Chair" is "chairness" kind of.

[00:28:32]

BS: Hmmm?

RFD: In Plato, he always has this thing where the quality is the thing itself. Where the quality of the chair is a kind of chairness. You know. That things are always just what they are, kind of. And so maybe that's kind of counter how I was raised where things always lead to something else and everything, like... In a way its very, like, just accept what is just right here. Its kind of a very plain philosophy, you know.

[00:29:05]

BS: How do you think it evolved or developed? I mean, 'cause I don't know much about RISD but don't you do, like, you study-- its very directed?

RFD: Ahh, it was murder. They give you, like, woodshop. The first day of woodshop, like they, you know, my hair caught in the thing and I had to go to Rhode Island Hospital-- pulled out part of my scalp. I'm mean it was really hard-- all these skills I never developed. I never even learned to draw. I don't know what to say to you. Its just that I don't think RISD had much to do with the drive, you know. I think I was lucky to have met people on the way that validated it, but I think the drive's kind of, like...

[00:29:41]

BS: The drive? As in your own personal...?

RFD: Yeah, just to say... And maybe that there's this huge rebellion against... Like, I really benefitted from when my grandparents leaving Russia, obviously and not be... And you know... And my father's relatives were.... I mean everyone was, like, faced with extinction. So I really benefitted, but I think that kind of anxious drive forward is something I wanted to stop, you know.

[00:30:07]

BS: Hmmm. Do you ever feel, kind of like, I mean, you don't fit really, like, the pattern of the rest of your family. Does it ever...

RFD: Not at all. I think its hard on my kids 'cause then they... My daughter just went to law school and flunked out after a year 'cause she's really an artist. But I think she went to law school hoping to rejoin the old pattern, you know. I feel bad when it seems to impact the children. Its just, despite my wishing them well with what ever they do, you know. But I basically can't help it 'cause... I mean that's what I feel 'cause its what I want so much, yeah. And it is a mystery. Like, my brother just doesn't get it at all. And we have a pretty, like, decent but meaningless relationship because he just can't, you know, understand what I'm doing.

[00:30:5]

BS: You don't have that connection.

RFD: No connection at all, yeah. But I'm really... I'm lucky I'm married to somebody... I met him at, like, Harvard Square when I was, like, eighteen. We lived together. Got married. We eloped-- yeah were married by twenty, so. And we're, like, best friends. So, its not a lonely life, but... And his family is very different from him too, you know. He's got the Irish version of that, basically. So... I guess, you know.... I guess I'm really... I should end on that note that I'm really content. I just hope my kids don't.... Maybe they can win the lottery, 'cause they seem to really, you know, be much more conflicted by it. That's the only part I didn't plan on, you know. I didn't think they'd find our life anything but totally enchanting, but I think its just a harder world, you know. When you get into college and there's a lot of competition. It's a very noncompetitive lifestyle to be in your studio all day. And they were always really bowled over by competition and really upset by it, you know. So its kind of like we're old hippies, sort of. And you know, they're in the real world and they're like... I mean we don't smoke dope, but it's like, "Why'd you smoke so much dope?" I mean, that's, like, kind of how it hits them, you know. I mean I am really sympathetic to them.

[00:32:24]

BS: Is there anything else you'd like to add?

RFD: No, but it was nice meeting you.

[00:32:28]

BS: Well, it was nice meeting you too. Thank you so much.

RFD: That's so well. And I hope it all came out on the recording, yeah.

[00:32:34]

BS: We'll find out later.

RFD: And if it doesn't, don't be shy, you know.

BS: Okay.