[00:00:00]

BS: Okay, it says its recording so...

[00:00:02]

RFD: Okay, I believe you, yeah....

[00:00:04]

BS: So I think we should go. Okay, well the reason I kind of wanted to have this second interview is just I was reading through the transcript, and there's just so many things you just mention, and I kind of wanted to elaborate on those and get a bigger picture of it. And also, kind of, get, you know... I have a basic idea of your childhood and stuff like that, but then after RISD there's this huge gap. And I don't know anything that happened. So if we could just, actually, start maybe with more about your days at RISD. You mentioned working with the Concerned Students. You said you were really political there. Did you do any other political...?

[00:00:46]

RFD: We closed down the RISD museum for unclear reasons that I can't quite remember.... It had something to do... It was the Vietnam War. I don't know why the RISD museum was part of that. And then at our graduation we planted... You just have to take this all with a grain of salt. We put boxes under ever chair and announced that the graduation field was mined, just like the Haiphong harbor. Everyone better scatter.

[00:01:16]

BS: And did they?

[00:01:18]

RFD: Most parents, no. 'Cause it was RISD nobody pretty much moved. I think we were punished later for that. But I think... But seriously, what we were really trying to do all the time was get scholarships to make diversity 'cause RISD was totally not diverse. And before that there had been no mandate at all for diversity, and what happened with RISD and policies was we inherited the policies from Brown. So when L.B.J, who was really good about diversity. I mean if he had been good about the war he would have been a great president.

[00:01:51]

BS: Its hard to be both domestic and foreign.

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RFD: Yeah... And he sent some kind of a mandate to Brown, and we kind of copied their mandate. And tried to apply...

[00:02:03]

BS: What did the mandate say?

[00:02:03]

RFD: They had to have a certain percentage that duplicated the population. And I think it was, like, seventy percent black. And Brown, really, was very right-wing. Probably, the head of the CIA, Lyman Kurkpatrick, was head of political science. It was a very right-wing school. And so Brown was really undergoing turmoil, and my husband was in that class. And we tried to imitate their thing for diversity. And we were able to get a black dean named John Torres who was, to be honest, kind of shady 'cause he saw himself as a superstar, you know.

[00:02:40]

BS: Yeah, you mentioned he was very pompous and pretentious.

[00:02:42]

RFD: Yeah, just amazing. And he was friends with people like this poet, Topper Carew, who ended up writing for TV. I mean they all had their eye on the prize. You know what I'm saying? Like, poet slash TV producer kind of thing. And they still brought in some kids, like... And there was never any push to bring in Rhode Island students which would form an economic diversity right there. And so now RISD (we've been pushing it after nineteen years) RISD's taking two students from Hope High automatically with full scholarships. But it took a really long time to, kind of, try to link RISD up with its immediate community. And so the dean, the black dean, thought housing project; he thought black. So they linked us up with this man, Johnson, but he's so lazy. Like, they're white housing projects, you know. And he didn't know it. It's just like really poor white workers who'd come to work in the mills, and then the jobs went south and they stayed. And so he was really shocked when we got over there, and they were all, like, Irish and Italian, you know.

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BS: How did... What was his reaction?

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RFD: He couldn't show it, you know. So it was like... It was like...

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BS: Kind of, "What do I do now," type thing?

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RFD: Yeah. So then we had trouble getting his backing, and so then we kind of had to go over his head to the governor after that. Because he just thought housing projects, blacks, you know. He never doubted how many different kinds of poor white mill workers there are. Like French Canadian mill workers came down to Woonsocket. There's just a huge... you know. There's huge segments of poverty in Rhode Island, you know. And it knows no color line, you know. So we were really just into diversity. And we were slightly disappointed. I mean, their idea of diversity was like five black students, you know. And they made such a huge thing out of it-- so much pressure. You know, the kids, they got no real actual support, you know.

[00:04:50]

BS: Do you think it's changed enough now, or...?

[00:05:54]

RFD: No, I'm always totally sad about RISD. I mean, I work in the public schools now more directly now. You can't have an art school that costs that much money, thirty-thousand dollars, and then expect poor kids... Like, if a poor kid got into Brown or got into RISD, I'd tell him to go to Brown even if it wasn't as good of education for them. And its taken a lot of thought for me to think that 'cause you end up with nothing, you know. And you think that real equality would be you'd want minority kids to take the same risks, but there's no one to pick up the pieces... Rich kid who comes from New York, you know, and the family picks up the pieces afterwards. Its really different.

[00:05:37]

BS: You have that backbone, that support.

[00:05:38]

RFD: Yeah. It's a really hard issue, 'cause its the opposite of anything that would change your life economically.

[00:05:51]

BS: What do you mean by that?

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RFD: Well, like, the whole concept of equality in America would be, like, having the same opportunities. And going to RISD, like, automatically limits your opportunities. It'd be like adding a handicap, you know.

[00:06:08]

BS: You said when you were talking about your experiences briefly at RISD, "The sixties came and there were a lot of pretensions." What exactly did you mean by that, because I don't think of the sixties as particularly pretentious.

[00:06:21]

RFD: It's not. Well, with any affect, you know what I mean... Like, I remember we took off across country. Naturally, me and my husband were already together. And like we went to this place called Drop City in New Mexico were they made housing out of hammered car parts, you know. And it was, like, what a cool idea just to live off the land, bla bla bla. And when I got there it was structured. Every society has a structure. The men were out in the fields smoking dope, you know. [indecipherable] The women were bustling round the kitchen like...

[00:06:57]

BS: There was still those separate spheres.

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RFD: Like freakin' Mormons. They were, like, making organic rice. And its like fuck this. What revolution is.... You know what I mean? It was just unbelievable, like... And they always kept breaking down into these... No-one would ever.... You never had, kind of, a right to criticize the basic...

[00:07:15]

BS: The basic what?

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RFD: The basic structures of things. It was just, kind of, you added an over layer. And so the antiwar movements was probably the purist of all the movements. I think things like the Black Panthers, they had a lot wrong with them, and they were totally sexist, but the reason for it was so clear that... Do you know what I mean? That sometimes it erases the pretext. But when things had no real reason like if it...

[00:07:44]

BS: Just an alternative, kind of....

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RFD: Life style. It became style-oriented, and then the pretense drove me nuts, you know. So we ended up, like... Actually, a lot of the movements were coming out of Brown-- had more money. So, like, we were anti-draft counselors, and we helped people get to psychiatrists who'd give them psychological for-aps to get them out, you know. And help people get to Canada and stuff like that. So we're part of that movement. But that was just very practical, sort of mechanical, linkage. But the life style stuff... which, after dropping out, comes really easily to me.

[00:08:19]

BS: You never got swept away with it or anything?

[00:08:21]

RFD: No, no. Just, like, when you saw the kind of person who dropped acid in your living room and stayed for a year, which happened to us, you know. Its just such an asshole user-- even in these days they would be just the same kind of a mooch, you know. And they just abounded. We had this family, the Rundletts, and they were nudists. They had two kids, Cosmic and Esau. And they came to dinner and took off their clothes and stayed for three months, you know.

[00:08:46]

BS: In your dorm or in your...?

[00:08:48]

RFD: It's just, we had a one room apartment.

[00:08:50]

BS: Okay

[00:08:50]

RFD: We had this... Denise Levertov, you know avant garde poet, her son came, and he was living like in the bathtub, and they're, like, living there naked. And I went to Star Market and the checkout woman I was telling her about. She's like, "Tell them your problems and they'll go away. I promise you. People like that just..." And I go, "Well, I don't know if I have any, you know." 'Cause I was like...

[00:09:10]

BS: 'Cause they're your problem.

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RFD: Yeah, so, she said make some really heavy problems up. Yeah, so I went home on my bicycle, made up some heavy problems. They were out by nightfall.

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BS: Really.

[00:09:19]

RFD: Yeah, yeah. They really were.

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BS: So they seriously just stopped by for dinner and just stayed...

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RFD: They just took off their clothes. And Buddha and Esau were really cute, the little kids, the little naked children, but it was a lot, you know. And that kind of stuff happened to you all the time. If you're naturally generous spirited it was just... It was weird to have people take such advantage of... 'Cause in that kind of hierarchy the kind of people who were hard core could take advantage of your quote-unquote openness. You know what I mean, like?

[00:09:52]

BS: So the hard core as in being swept away with this kind of movement.

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RFD: People who knew how to use it-- kind of work it, yeah.

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BS: Okay

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RFD: Like James worked for, my husband worked for another newspaper that was avant garde called Extract, and it was out of Brown. This guy Arne Strässer. And James had this really nice World War II leather bomber jacket he inherited. And Arne Strässer just took it and said to James, "Property is theft." You know, how convenient. You know what I'm saying? Now I wouldn't have taken that, but James is, like, so into being a believer. He's like, "I guess your right. The fact that it hurts me. Like, I'm a materialist." You know what I mean?

[00:10:33]

BS: Yeah.

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RFD: So that's kind of... And if you add drugs to the mix-- you're kind of stoned-- it was all, just eahh. Just predators were just abounding, you know.

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BS: Predators as in people just taking advantage...

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RFD: Yeah, of everything, yeah.

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BS: 'Cause you never think of it as taking... Studying it from, like, a historical point. Like you talk about the sixties in your AP US history class. And its...

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RFD: People never...

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BS: You don't think of predators, you don't think about mooches...

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RFD: Of course, because people are people. No. No. Like, for example, we didn't go to Woodstock because I thought it was really commercial, and I thought it was wrong. God knows. I probably would of.... I love live music, but it was, like, wrong. 'Cause they were all these developers sort of taking advantage of the youth. It was really obvious. They were selling tents with Woodstock on the side. And I thought its such a penurious... So wrong. So instead of going there these friends went and brought back the LSD from Woodstock, and we took that. It's like. So we had...

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BS: So you had half of the experience.

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RFD: We had the worst experience 'cause it was all poisoned. It was all, like, rat poison. So we managed to poison ourselves but not actually get to hear the music, you know. And that's from over thinking everything, you know. So, I don't know. But it really happened a lot that way. You just did. But the politics is right... It's the same politics. It's the same war as now, exactly. I mean...

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BS: How do you see that?

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RFD: Oh, the Vietnamese were minorities. I mean, basically, Muslims same foreign...

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BS: So you're talking about the policies...

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RFD: Its just world dominance. I mean, and it was, you know, God on your side. They really had a side, you know. You know, people like MacNarma, he's sorry now. And McGeorge Bumdy and stuff. They were indistinguishable from Cheney and Pearl. It's the same... It's like, meet the same boss, same as the old boss. I mean it was really the same. It was the same struggle, you know. And I'm really surprised how conservative students are. I mean, I love that the campus is just opened up and ... But imagine having campuses where, like, kids were shot by their own national guard [inaudible].

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BS: My great grandfather was teaching at Kent State during that.

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RFD: And those pictures from Kent State. I mean, that happened in my time, and while I was in college. And it was a really, like, freakin' blew all of our minds, you know. And James went to Brown, and they wouldn't let them march through the Van Winkle Gates because they wore a protest thing on their arm about the Vietnam War, and they weren't allowed to open the gates. So he didn't get a diploma 'til, like, I think five years ago Brown sent him a diploma, yeah.

[00:13:20]

BS: Really?

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RFD: Yeah, that class, the class of '69, '70.

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BS: So nobody in the class got a diploma?

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RFD: No.

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BS: Just the people protesting the war?

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RFD: They all protested. Pretty much the whole class wore something on their arm. It's pretty amazing. And just for that. I mean it was a silent protest. It was just a... I think it was a white rag.

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BS: Do you... I mean, I know I feel students today are, frankly, kind of apathetic.

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RFD: I'm astonished by it.

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BS: Why do you think that is? Like, do you see parallels?

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RFD: Don't ask me. It freakin' horrifies me. I mean, I don't understand it at all. And I don't understand, just by definition, how you can be a student and not be totally engaged with those issues, like? I don't know if its careerism or like...

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BS: Like what?

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RFD: Careerism. Like they're so worried economically. I can't imagine that, being young and not wanting to change stuff. I mean, I'm not young any more, and I still want to change... I mean, when I wake up every day that's my mission is to change one, something, one thing, anything, you know.

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BS: Do you see it as a cycle? Do you think it would ever come back or...?

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RFD: Because I don't understand it I don't know how... I completely don't understand it. I don't understand the lack of outrage. I mean, if one of my classmates was drafted to fight in Iraq, you know what I mean, I would be burning down the house. I mean, I don't understand the lack of horror; like the lack of amazement. I mean, as a young person, if anyone asked me to do those things... I just don't get it, you know. I mean, I don't get it at all. I mean, I think, for example, small groups of people that protest... The Catholics that got molested by priests, like, I'm very impressed by their organization and how they keep on keeping on 'cause they've been traumatized, too. So they're at a real handicap. Plus they get stigmatized. And they still sue, and... Do you know what I'm saying?

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BS: Yeah.

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RFD: So why would people with all the advantages, kind of, reclose?

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BS: And they've got national attention too.

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RFD: National attention without stig... Why wouldn't they... I just don't get it at all. I mean, people are brave whistle blowers. People... Like, I don't get it. I don't get it. And then I kind of, I suppose, I always blame adults for children 'cause I figure they've been raised wrong. Then I blame the faculties, too. I would never be on a faculty anywhere without feeling it was my responsibility to empower... I mean, and I wouldn't feel like it was crossing the line to agitate my students. I figure they have to be agitated-- that's what learning is, you know. So I really don't understand it at all.

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BS: I don't.

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RFD: And maybe that's what the college selection process is. If you have to have a certain college selection course, you already have to be compliant. Maybe its preselective.

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BS: You have to be in the system.

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RFD: Maybe you're preselected to be compliant, you know. I mean, otherwise I don't understand it at all, you know.

[00:16:45]

BS: You said in your last interview that, like, in between there's a certain amount of time between graduating from RISD as an undergrad and going to grad school there that you have to before you can, like, get, like, your masters or something in painting. And you said you worked as, like, a dishwasher. How did that kind of... You had to balance that work with doing your art and still thinking ahead and going to grad school. How did that work...

[00:17:08]

RFD: It did, it didn't... It wasn't hard. Painting's more blue collar than anything else. I think the hardest balance I ever got was teaching and painting. 'Cause it was when you teach you're watching someone paint-- you're helping someone paint their painting, so... Its like there's a quote in the Torah, like, "Education is the world turning on the breath of children reading the torah." It's kind of like that painting. It's like, you hold your breath and they paint. But when you're dishwashing, its so much like painting. You just keep repeating something over and over and over and over until it's... But painting's really like that. It's like really one step forward one step back. And sometimes something big happens like in pinball. And its basically a discipline like that. So that wasn't hard. I'm not a very good dishwasher, though. I'm really not. But you know what I'm saying? All my sort of more drudgery jobs weren't a conflict, and it wasn't until I taught that I found a real conflict with painting. I hope I never have to teach again, you know.

[00:18:19]

BS: Was it difficult to just to find the time to paint still or... 'Cause I know...

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RFD: It was the impulse. It was the impulse really. Its like the why to paint, you know.

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BS: Okay.

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RFD: 'Cause when you're hearing everyone's why you want to nurture their reasons. And then...

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BS: Wait. The why as in W-H-....?

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RFD: Y.

[00:18:86]

BS: Okay.

[00:18:36]

RFD: Yeah. I don't think its hard how to paint after a while, you know. People are born with natural talent. People develop it. Your hand is probably your easiest part of the painting process. And seeing this... Some of them can be taught too. But what makes a really good painter is why you want to paint. What do you want to say, you know. When you start listening to why other people, their sentences, you know, you hear your sentences, you know.

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BS: So what do you mean by hearing...

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RFD: So like, if you go to class, and you're really open to your students, and your really developing their reasons why they're doing it, you know. You can't quite remember how, how raw your reason was for doing it. It becomes more intellectual. I think you really need isolation. So, like a dishwasher job or a retail job or really isolated jobs were really good for it. Like, you have your station, you know. So some people call RISD Rhode Island School of Restaurants, you know. 'Cause, you know, you just end up being a waitress. 'Cause anything that's very isolated works for that.

[00:19:47]

BS: Did you use the job, kind of, just to observe in a way? Because its so isolating. Just to...

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RFD: No, I just needed money. I didn't really...

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BS: Okay

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RFD: I'm really a terrible worker, you know. I really am.

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BS: 'Cause I know, like, just affording canvass and oil and stuff like that...

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RFD: No, I was already married and like. No, I just...

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BS: You mentioned, your husband having, graduated from Brown, hoping to become a writer, you didn't have any moneymaking skills. Its got to be a little tough just to make sure you can do what you want to do and still...

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RFD: Yeah, and still I suppose that's different between here and now. Because we didn't really worry about... Our landlord loved us. You miss the rent and it's like... Things were looser then, you know. He'd come for coffee, and we had a pet squirrel named Chewy. And he ate the wiring, and we weren't suppose to have pets. When he'd come Chewy would always hide behind the curtains, I'm telling you, so scared.

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BS: So this squirrel actually lived inside?

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RFD: Yeah.

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BS: Okay.

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RFD: And we're always worried that, you know, he'd like, you know, notice Chewy, but he.... It was just too obvious that... I was like, what's wrong with this picture that...? He'd be like, "What's that sound?" Chewy always made a [squirrel sound] like that. "I don't know, maybe it's the electrical or..." And you couldn't lock Chewy out 'cause he'd eat right through the door, too. He could chew.... Like, you can't put him out because he could just chew his way back in. So...

[00:21:13]

BS: So this squirrel just kind of elected to live with you.

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RFD: Yeah. Well he had fallen out of a nest...

[00:21:17]

BS: Oh, okay.

[00:21:19]

RFD: ...and so I gave him a bottle and that was it, you know. Yeah, it was a looser time, you know. I remember once we were broken into, and somebody had taken the hi-fi set and nothing else...

[00:21:39]

BS: The hi-fi...?

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RFD: You know, it was just a turn table, you know, like a record player, you know.

[00:21:46]

BS: Okay.

[00:21:46]

[00:22:11]

BS: In your interview you mentioned twice before, just talking about the sexism. And you were saying just how sexist the field of painting is. And then you also were talking about just seeing your daughters experience covert sexism. If you could just elaborate on that. 'Cause, like, today I don't... Maybe I'm just not aware of it, but I don't feel... I don't see a whole lot of sexism, at least towards me.

[00:22:39]

RFD: Well, what field are you going to go into?

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BS: Oh no, just in general.

[00:22:43]

RFD: I don't think you'll even know.

[00:22:47]

BS: I have no clue.

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RFD: No, but I'm just saying I think it would be so... It's so... This sounds like such a blatantly... This sounds like... But, you're interviewing me. I'm not just giving... I think it's so set in stone, just like racism, that you won't even notice it unless you go out of your way to notice it.

[00:23:07]

BS: You just have to notice it. That's the way it is.

[00:23:10]

RFD: That culture for it, yeah.

[00:23:11]

BS: Okay.

[00:23:12]

RFD: And I really think that if you stepped out of... And it doesn't have to come from men; it can come from other women. I don't think you know how to look for it, you know. I bet if you got in a fight with Ruth Simmons, you would experience sexism. And you wouldn't even know how it hit you, but you would. She'd treat you differently than she would a male student, you know. Be harder on you, I think. Its just a guess, but I'm saying....

[00:23:38]

BS: She'd be harder on me?

[00:23:39]

RFD: Yeah.

[00:23:40]

BS: What do you mean by that? Like, how would she be?

[00:23:50]

RFD: It would be perceived as being less grateful, kind of, in the hierarchical system, and you would get more punished for it. I think it's really, really there. I mean, I think they had to structure the society in some way just like classism. I think classism is the worst just because... You know then racism, then sexism, but I think people.... That's how society is set up, and that's how it runs, and I think most school systems cater to it, you know.

[00:24:25]

BS: Have you... I mean you mentioned....

[00:24:27]

RFD: Maybe that's why there aren't any student protests. Maybe there's so many things that are so in place that in order to make a movement in one area, like, you know, things would all fall apart, you know.

[00:24:38]

BS: Its too fragmented.

[00:24:39]

RFD: Yeah, yeah. Maybe it's already divide and conquer, kind of.

[00:24:47]

BS: How is the field of painting sexist then?

[00:24:51]

RFD: Oh, just men make more money, period. It's just a given, and the superstars have always been men. I think the thing I'm leaving out is, do I mind that? Not really.

[00:25:04]

BS: Do you what?

[00:25:04]

RFD: Do I mind it? How much do I mind it? Not really. I mean, I would mind if I had a career where it entered my studio, but the real event is between me and my painting and my studio. Far from that I think I'm really lucky that I have a job that's really ungendered. Like the eye's not gendered. Do you know what I'm saying? The actual event....

[00:25:26]

BS: Yeah, they see your work as what it is, kind of. As opposed to like...

[00:25:30]

RFD: No, when I make it, it's a non-gendered event. And then after that, that's when all the shit happens. But even how people view it, I think, is like that, too. But that's not my business anymore. But I'd hate to have the actual creation of it. I'd hate to be an actress and only get certain roles and being an older actress and only get certain roles. That would drive me nuts.

[00:25:55]

BS: Yeah.

[00:25:56]

RFD: An art that was based on agism. You know what I mean? I couldn't stand it.

[00:26:01]

BS: Just stuff you have no control over.

[00:26:03]

RFD: No control. But once you're in the studio you're home free.

[00:26:06]

BS: Yeah.

[00:26:07]

RFD: Yeah, the moment that door shuts it's, like, complete freedom. It's, like, the nicest feeling on earth. It's just, like, me and my shadow. You know what I mean? I love it, yeah.

[00:26:19]

BS: But you mention your daughters, kind of, just experiencing the sexism, too.

[00:26:24]

RFD: Yeah, they do all the time. Yeah. I don't know what to do about that. I mean, I think I just raise them with a sense... I try not to shelter them so much. Like, you're maternal instincts when your kids are outraged is, "Here, here, its all right. Mommy'll.... Don't worry about it too much. There're some nice people..." You try to always make things right, and I've had to really struggle with myself to say "No, that sucks, that's wrong." You know, and go fight it, you know. 'Cause your instincts are to make your children comfortable, not mad, you know.

[00:27:02]

BS: You said before that you would never teach at RISD again. You'd never...

[00:27:10]

RFD: Well, I shouldn't say never. I shouldn't say that. I might have to economically. My youngest daughter's a senior, and she has to go to college. And I really want to have the money. But its not to say I'm cynical. When I sign up for the job then I really do it. That's why I hate it. I think some people fold it in after a while.

[00:27:29]

BS: Does it detract from your work? Okay.

[00:27:32]

RFD: Totally.

[00:27:35]

BS: Is it just, like, frustrating at all? Especially when its...

[00:27:41]

RFD: No, there's always like three talented students that are beyond belief talented. Like, I mean, you just can't believe the average talent that's there. It's not that it's really frustrating; it's that its endless, I mean, if you really want to give them what they need. 'Cause they basically could do it without an education, all of them. And if you want to, kind of, kick it up a notch, give them stuff for the future, you really got to work ahead of the game. You just have to be awake all night thinking what's best for them. If you're responsible; if you think it's that important. Like, I think its like heart surgery, like, I think it has to be right. If you were a surgeon you wouldn't go "I'm going to come in and kind of cut on the left," you know. And I feel that way about art. Like it's got to be right on the money, you know.

[00:28:31]

BS: How do you make it right on the money? 'Cause when I paint it's kind of like, oh, that happened... Okay, I'll work with it, kind of. Do you know?

[00:28:37]

RFD: Yeah, yeah. But that can't be if you are going to be a painter for life.

[00:28:42]

BS: Okay.

[00:28:42]

RFD: It has to be, why did it happen? Suppose I moved it an inch to the left, would it happen differently? Suppose I move it an inch to the right... You know what I mean? Like, where is right on the money and why is it right on the money and what is the money? Like every act has about a hundred questions that go with it. And, too, you can parse your own event with-- you pick it apart and then let go of it again. And then you'll absorb the.... I mean you wouldn't want to paint your whole life thinking about every stroke, but you have to, as you're being educated, think of every stroke so that it gets... It's like learning a language as it gets reabsorbed, you know. Why and how.

[00:29:28]

BS: But it's just... Going back to teaching at RISD....

[00:29:30]

RFD: It's just so intensive. I mean, I can't imagine doing it seriously your whole life, you know. I mean, taking it seriously... I mean that's why I like people like Richard Hamilton and stuff. Its kind of amazing the commitment-- and when they retire, they're really happy to retire. Trust me. They don't need parties or anything; they're sailing. They really do it for the money, you know. Just to keep alive.

[00:29:58]

BS: Because it's just so hard to make it as it is. You mentioned that you went to your high school, your college reunion, and out of your class only about two people were painting out of like eighteen.

[00:30:09]

RFD: Yeah. Its a small class anyhow, yeah. I'm sure now its bigger. It must be like fifty painters, but...

[00:30:16]

BS: Do people ever go back to it, or... No, once you let it go you...

[00:30:20]

RFD: It'd be like going back to being a long distance runner. Once you kind of, you know. You got to... It's really a huge commitment of energy. It's a little bit like being a priest or, you know, something like that.

[00:30:30]

BS: You dedicate your life.

[00:30:32]

RFD: Yeah, you turn your life over to it, if you're really doing it. You could be an illustrator, I'm, sure and leave it and come back to it.

[00:30:43]

BS: How can you anticipate dedicating your life 'cause I know you never thought of doing it when you were younger...

[00:30:49]

RFD: No, I never... No, I don't think you can. When I talk to other people, none of them, the ones that are still painters, none of us did really. You just kind of back into it.

[00:31:01]

BS: Back into it. Did you ever feel, kind of like, cornered by it? Like you didn't know what to do exactly by then or?

[00:31:08]

RFD: No.

[00:31:10]

BS: It's just a kind of a roundabout away of figuring out what you want to do?

[00:31:13]

RFD: Yeah. Yeah. It bites you kind of and you get addicted. I mean, it's just really odd how you just start. Like, when you first start doing it you just think, "Awh, it's my next assignment." Now, all of a sudden, you're thinking, "My next painting" and you're not even thinking about assignments anymore. And then you're starting "My next stroke." You know what I mean?

[00:31:31]

BS: Yeah.

[00:31:32]

RFD: And then, like, here I am, you know. And you see your poor students when they start to fall in the pit. Like, they start getting nose bleeds and, you know, twitches. And, you're like, oh shit, they got bit too.

[00:31:47]

BS: Just because its so exhausting teaching stuff like that, how do you direct students? Because I just have no idea how you would actually teach painting.

[00:31:57]

RFD: It's really hard. It's like patting your head and rubbing your stomach.

[00:32:01]

BS: I mean, do you give them actual directions or...

[00:32:03]

RFD: Yeah. Well, they paint in front of you, and, like, for me, this meant watching their painting the whole time. So I found it exhausting. There's got to be an easier way, but...

[00:32:12]

BS: But each painting would take hours and hours so you would just sit right behind.

[00:32:15]

RFD: I would sit in the class and look at everyone's paintings. I'd come home and just pass out. I'm sure there's an easier way, I just never figured out a way other than the way I would do it, you know. So it's eternal vigilance, you know. I felt like a border guard or something, you know.

[00:32:32]

BS: Would you ever kind of correct them, or...?

[00:32:34]

RFD: Oh yeah. Yeah, I mean.

[00:32:37]

BS: But how do you correct painting?

[00:32:39]

RFD: You just go, "You need a black vertical so bad," you know. And they go, if they're grown up, they be like, "Fuck you, get away from me." And I'd be like, aywyeh. And then you'd have that struggle. Or if they're too compliant you get scared 'cause that meant they didn't understand why they needed it.

[00:32:56]

BS: And it really wasn't really their idea.

[00:32:58]

RFD: It wasn't theirs, and you know... So that would enter into the whole field of... Its just like a terrible thing to teach. That's probably why there're the old fashion way where you had The School of Ruebens, or something like that. [inaudible]

[00:33:15]

BS: If we could kind of talk about just, you know, your commitment to Fox Point. You trying to keep the community there 'cause it's kind of being infiltrated by all these Brown students, and the housing there.

[00:33:36]

RFD: Oh yeah, we lost that one, just in short. So then I moved to North Main Street and tried to keep that area because that was all art studios. And we lost that one, too.

[00:33:37]

BS: So how did you, kind of, combat this.

[00:33:41]

RFD: Then we decided the next thing is we'd have to buy things. So that's why I became obsessed with AS220 buying their spaces instead of renting it. I wasn't involved in AS220 the mission, just AS220 the buying. And then we bought that school where my studio is-- a bunch of artists bought that too. We're just obsessed with buying things so that we can't be moved out of neighborhoods.

[00:34:03]

BS: How did you organize it 'cause it's got to take many, many people to save, try to save Fox Point and then start AS220.

[00:34:12]

RFD: I wasn't one of the people trying to save Fox Point. I was just actually just evicted from Fox Point. That's what gave me the idea.

[00:34:20]

BS: Okay.

[00:34:21]

RFD: Those people, I didn't know them very well. And then North Main Street artists, we organized. We had a newspaper, and we got together with this thing... We became the first nonprofit loft to rise from any art. We all got together as a group and went to the State Council of the Arts and tried to do it that way. It wasn't successful. So we failed about four times before we did AS220... If it wasn't for Buddy Cianci, the crooked mayor, we could have never done it. He really understood the idea...

[00:34:55]

BS: How did he help?

[00:34:56]

RFD: He gave us a city loan. But he understood the idea of making an arts district. He was very visionary-- Dirty as hell, really easy to work with, you know. Yeah so yeah. He was on City Confidential last night on A and E; they had the whole case. It was really interesting. But yeah, so that's really the city was invaluable in helping us make the art district and same with the school I was at. That thing that was crookedly repossessed from the city-- we needed the city for that. We really had to work with city government and all that. And that was an education, and so, yeah...

[00:35:40]

BS: What kind of road blocks did you run up against...

[00:35:44]

RFD: Everything.

[00:35:45]

BS: Everything?

[00:35:46]

RFD: Everything. There was nothing that we didn't run up against. It took thirteen years. Not that I...

[00:35:52]

BS: Thirteen years to...?

[00:35:54]

RFD: Really own it, basically. Everything I've ever done that's actually been successful has taken a decade, you know. I'm fifty-six and I'm pooped. But I mean, its taken like... You know what I mean? I'm actually going to try to take a couple of years off from doing stuff 'cause...

[00:36:11]

BS: Just like community service? A couple years off from community organizing?

[00:36:13]

RFD: Community organizing yeah 'cause they're big chunks. They're not something that you just pick up and finish by November.

[00:36:18]

BS: Do you think you will actually be able to take time off 'cause you seem like you're going to get involved somehow.

[00:36:22]

RFD: No, I know, I really, you know, I have trouble with that. [inaudible]

[00:36:30]

BS: I kind of wanted to talk a little bit about how you paint. I asked last time how your style developed, and you said that RISD had very little to do with it. But you had to somehow come to the way you paint. Do you have any idea how you...?

[00:36:47]

RFD: No. I wasn't readily talented. I wasn't one of those kids... Like, there were kids who came to RISD, and they could do like the shine on the apple, the tears on babies' cheeks. You know, I've never been able to do that; can't draw at all. And I didn't pass the first portfolio review. I didn't get into RISD the first time, just 'cause-- just didn't. And I never understood just the technical ability stuff so I sort of had to pick up a way that seemed honorable to me. And what seemed honorable was to try for something. And I'm still doing that-- just trying for it, you know.

[00:37:26]

BS: So do you practice drawing and stuff like that?

[00:37:29]

RFD: I do everything from life; nothing's internal. So like, if I'm doing a self portrait, it's from the mirror. So I'm looking at the mirror; I'm not looking at the painting; and then I'm trying to make my hand respond.

[00:37:42]

BS: Just kind of train that kind of connection.

[00:37:43]

RFD: Connection without... And my big thing is to have my eye and my hand, not to have shit come in between the two things. Its like, I think I had shit look like this. Or there's a T-zone where your eyes, nose, and mouth-- in advertising they call it a T-zone. People who just do it automatically--just do the eyes, nose. When you really do it you should try to have... Like, in my first homework assignment for my students would be do a self portrait from the back of your head not the front. 'Cause everyone's back is, you know-- you don't have any features, yeah. And that's really what I'm thinking about. So you kind of have to feel it and paint it. And not anyone's head is alike from the back any more than it is from the front, but we grow so use to identifying themselves by their features, you know.

[00:38:29]

BS: So did you ever study another artist that you would , kind of, pick stuff up from or that was kind of....?

[00:38:36]

RFD: Well, I look at other artists all the time so I must pick, I mean...

[00:38:40]

BS: It's just you absorb it sort of.

[00:38:41]

RFD: Yeah. I think what I'm thinking is sort of that Bob Dylan line "to live out side the law you most be honest." I try to stay honest all the time. Like, not cheat. It sometimes would like look really good to put, like, a little thing of like baby blue right there or something, but its not really there. So I had to take it out even though it's, like, right looking. I guess its like an ad for Starkiss Tuna: "Charlie wants tuna that taste good, not looks good," or something. I really am concerned with, like, they have to be the thing that they really are. Like in Plato. Have you ever had any philosophy? Plato, like "the quality of a chair is like chairness." You know what I mean.? That's what I'm interested in painting. Like whatever the chairness is. So I don't want the form of the chair to be perfect or the glaze on it or something. I just want to find the quality that's...

[00:39:33]

BS: Makes it a chair. Okay, I'm kind of understanding, but it's...

[00:39:38]

RFD: I mean, I'm not really good with words or I probably wouldn't be a painter.

[00:39:41]

BS: You can't describe it with words.

[00:39:42]

RFD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause its not a word vocabulary. I'm really concerned with that thing that make things what they are. And I'm concerned with being humble in front of that, too. Like what makes a Rembrandt portrait so great is that he's really just standing, you know, before his God basically saying, "I'm nothing. Take me," kind of. That kind of relinquishing control over it, too. And that's the fun with being a painter; you have to do so much work, but you're not in control. The sum's going to be bigger than the parts so, you know. That's kind of cool, too. There's a kind of humbleness. You really have to be modest to be a good painter. So it's very weird 'cause to make money you have to be very immodest. So its a really hard struggle, you know.

[00:40:31]

BS: So it's kind of to prevent from selling out, essentially.

[00:40:34]

RFD: Yeah, you want to sell, but not out. Yeah, its a really hard thing, you know.

[00:40:42]

BS: Do you see people that do sell out? Or is it too rare, just kind of...?

[00:40:46]

RFD: Oh yeah, all the time.

[00:40:48]

BS: 'Cause its so hard to make it in the first place.

[00:40:50]

RFD: And I don't dislike them either. I mean, I know a lot of people who are really naturally... Usually, people are usually naturally really talented who make it, and they deserve it. But at a certain point they have to mutate their talent to be more public and more curateable. And they do, usually, if they've made it.

[00:42:07]

BS: You said before that working in this field is very noncompetitive. It's kind of, you have your own little world, and it's kind of isolated. And how do you stay in touch with the rest of the world when you spend so much time in your studio?

[00:41:27]

RFD: I don't do a very good job with it. I just don't.

[00:41:29]

BS: I mean, you've got to, kind of. I mean, if you're so involved in community organizing and stuff like that.

[00:41:34]

RFD: Yeah, you kind of create a different persona to bring to that, you know.

[00:41:38]

BS: Okay.

[00:41:39]

RFD: So I think I had a show that was called something Twelve Years of Solitude or something. And then there were all these people like, "Ruth! You're never alone. What do you mean? What solitude?" Yeah, 'cause you just...

[00:41:50]

BS: You have two different worlds.

[00:41:51]

RFD: Yeah, totally.

[00:41:55]

BS: Is it... I'm just trying to think.

[00:41:58]

RFD: I don't mind that at all. I'm such a different person to myself than I am to other people.

[00:42:06]

BS: How are you different?

[00:42:07]

RFD: I mean just when I'm alone I don't have a voice at all. I'm really like that. Just an eye, you know, looking. So I'm really like that, you know, more like a camera, or something. Or like a person. When I'm alone I don't think, aoh, I feel mad today or I feel lonely today or I feel this. I just walk in, you know.

[00:42:28]

BS: I'm still just trying to...

[00:42:31]

RFD: I'm sorry, I know I'm not doing a very...

[00:42:32]

BS: Oh, no, no, no. What you're telling me is actually incredible...

[00:42:35]

RFD: Its the truth. That's the trouble. It doesn't... It's not very linear. That's the problem with it.

[00:42:40]

BS: Well you don't think linearly. So it works out.

[00:42:42]

RFD: Yeah, yeah. But I'm just saying...

[00:42:43]

BS: So it just kind of shows how you think.

[00:42:45]

RFD: I'm sorry that it's...

[00:42:47]

BS: Oh, don't be.

[00:42:48]

RFD: It's not actually a theory. But, I'm just saying, I don't know how people could think linearly. Like...

[00:43:00]

BS: You have to be a math person, I think.

[00:43:02]

RFD: Yeah.

[00:43:03]

BS: And we're not that. I'm just trying to think. I feel like I kind of know a little about your life growing up in your competitive, or career-orientated family, kind of, and your time at RISD and stuff like that. What have you been doing after that? After RISD. I mean, it seems like this vacuum where I don't...

[00:43:29]

RFD: Just painting.

[00:43:30]

BS: Just painting, okay.

[00:43:31]

RFD: Yeah, I don't. Yeah, like filling in with jobs and, you know, raising kids.

[00:43:36]

BS: What else have you done for jobs wise?

[00:43:30]

RFD: Just really teaching. You know I worked at retail. Sold dress shields.

[00:43:45]

BS: Sold what?

[00:43:46]

RFD: Dress shields. Like for under your armpits. Yeah, and I was really bad at that 'cause, like, I took returns which is really like...

[00:43:54]

BS: Ewww.

[00:43:56]

RFD: 'Cause these old ladies would come down on the bus 'cause they use them 'cause they have wool dresses. So it's like an old person field. I don't know... I was a dishwasher again in a reborn-Christian center in Seattle. We moved to the West Coast for a while.

[00:44:10]

BS: You moved where?

[00:44:11]

RFD: Seattle, yeah.

[00:44:13]

BS: Why'd you move there?

[00:44:14]

RFD: 'Cause my husband was a social worker by then, and the state paid for you to go to graduate school. So we thought that we should pick, since we had no money, the farthest away place 'cause we'd never afford to go there, you know, again.

[00:44:27]

BS: So its like, "Okay, we'll go to Seattle."

[00:44:28]

RFD: Yeah, we'd never had been there or anything. I was really glad to come back. And then you had to pay the state back, but I was really glad to come back. But I was a dishwasher the whole time there, too, 'cause it seemed to be the only...

[00:44:40]

BS: What brought you back to Providence?

[00:44:42]

RFD: 'Cause he had to pay the state back.

[00:44:44]

BS: Oh, so its Providence which paid for you to go to Seattle and...

[00:44:46]

RFD: Yeah the State of Rhode Island, but you had to come back, yeah. I was glad, I don't know... Our old landlord said, "You'll be back. The bride is too beautiful." And we were like, "What the hell is he talking about?" But I totally feel that way; I'm really in love with it here.

[00:45:00]

BS: What makes you so in love with it?

[00:45:03]

RFD: Just, well, the community is very poor. You can be with really rich people and poor people, white people and black people, you know. And it doesn't really matter 'cause you have contact. So, if you want contact with anyone, not this governor but most of the other governors, you could walk just right in their office.

[00:45:23]

BS: The governor?

[00:45:24]

RFD: Yeah, yeah. And with the mayor. You know, with Buddy you could just... The accessibility of...

[00:45:31]

BS: Did you ever just walk into Buddy's office?

[00:45:34]

RFD: Yeah, he hated me. He really hated me, yeah. But, you know, you walked in with respect with Buddy. You mean...

[00:45:45]

BS: You butt head to head, but you...

[00:45:47]

RFD: No, he'd call you... He was like royalty. You had to act like he was royal... You had to kiss up a lot. But it was all right because he always delivered what I needed delivered, you know. I'm sorry he's in jail for so long. He did do it, but five years-- that's a lot. How about two?

[00:46:09]

BS: I don't know a lot of what happened, I just know there's a lot of...

[00:46:13]

RFD: He was basically a thug, you know.

[00:46:16]

BS: But a good one.

[00:46:18]

RFD: A thug with vision, you know. So I thought they should... That was a long sentence, you know. Its a very organized way to run a government.

[00:46:29]

BS: And it seemed to kind of work for Providence, but...

[00:46:31]

RFD: Yeah, he stole a lot from the schools though. Like my kids never had text books. So that part was very unlovely, you know. But now there's no-one stealing from the schools, and they're still that broken. I don't know. It's hard to say.

[00:46:46]

BS: Is there anything else you'd like to add?

[00:46:48]

RFD: No.

[00:46:50]

BS: Okay, 'cause I think you have to head off now.

[00:46:51]

RFD: I really do have to head off now.

[00:46:52]

BS: I'm sorry it lasted so long.

[00:46:54]

RFD: Yeah, that's fine. So you have everything you need?[talk unrelated to interview]