Interviewer: Stephen Kilar
Interviewee: Milton Stanzler, founder of RI ACLU, Trinity Rep., President of JCC
Category: Legal, Trinity Rep.
Genre: Censorship, Theatre
Length in time: 01:19:30
Date: 10/22/04
00:00:00
Stephen Kilar: This is Stephen Kilar interviewing Milton Stanzler on October 22, 2004 at the Jewish Community Center on Elmgrove Avenue in Providence, RI. (Pause) So, if you could just start out by talking about when your family came to Rhode Island and what their business was when they got here. I know that they were moving movie theatre chains up this way…
00:28:00
Milton Stanzler: Well it wasn't a chain really. I was born in New York City in 1921 and ten years later my family moved to Rhode Island because my father who had been in the movie picture business, exhibition business, owned some theatres on Long Island and the competition became too difficult for him, he tried to take on Paramount Pictures. And a number of motion picture producers that had theatres all over the place. In other words they had exhibition, production, making the films, and they would run their theatres along side the smaller theatres like my father's and they came into the town where he was located the particular one was in College Point Long Island and he thought that he could compete with them but pretty soon they put him out of business so he went looking for other locations. He had been a immigrant that had come to the United States when he was about twelve years old from I don't really know I think part of Austria-Hungary which was very close to Poland at that time,
00:02:00
MS: and he came here at the age of twelve and he had an uncle here in Philadelphia and met with him and I guess after a number of years working with his uncle he went into business on his own in New York starting out in the window cleaning business with some other relatives who were in it but he didn't like that so he learned about movie and he decided to get into the exhibition of movies and he developed a small chain in Long Island as I recall it and I remember we lived in the Bronx at the time and there were no bridges, Tri-Borough bridges at the time so we used to take the fairies over from where we lived in the Bronx over to College Point Long Island and that's where he made a living for a number of years for all of his seven children. And ultimately, as I say Paramount Pictures decided to compete with him and they kind of put him out of business and he went out because having to still support his young family like myself and my two sisters who were not married – my four brother were married – so they were all on their own and if I could talk about baseball for a little bit…
00:03:10
SK: Sure.
00:03:11
MS: I remember one of my brothers taking me to see the New York Yankees play when they had Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig which was 1927 or 28. At any rate, (laughing) my father went to Boston to found a business which he thought he'd like which was to distribute candies and other kinds of eating materials that you see in the motion pictures, theatres today, and he decided to go into that business but after a while he didn't like it, so he figured he'd look around for something he did like which was showing motion pictures to the public. And he finally founded one in Rhode Island; the first one was on Broadway in Pawtucket and then he got another one in Centerdale, RI and then he got another one in Narragansett, RI.
00:04:00
MS: So he became quite an entrepreneur. And he was such an entrepreneur he died in 1934. Had a heart attack when we lived in Narragansett, RI.
00:04:12
SK: How old was he?
00:04:14
MS: Hum? He was 52. Which in those days in my eyes was old but in these days it's young. I have far exceeded that age already. So that's how we came to Rhode Island and after he passed away, I was the youngest of seven, my brothers took over with my mother in running my life and one of my bothers said "You know, you ought to go to college and get a degree in something," I says "I'll go to college," but I really liked the movie business he says, "You don't want to be in that business it's not a very good business," and I says, "But you're doing okay." At any rate they convinced me to go to school and I did go to school. I went to URI for a while at that time, 1937, it was Rhode Island State College. After two years my brother convinced me to try to get – what was I going to do in the future – he says, "You're not going to come into the business here." "Okay," I said, "I'll look around." I finally decided to go, he suggested I go to dental school and I said "Okay, if you suggest it, I'll go." Went to dental school. I got to dental school at Ohio State and after six weeks I called up and I said I don't want to speak to my brother, I want to speak to you, I don't want to be a dentist. I'm left handed and I don't like putting my hand in people's mouths. So she said okay, you finish up; do what you want to do. And I finished up at Ohio State and got a degree in Political Science. 1941.
00:05:49
SK: I'm sorry, if I could move back at little bit, when you moved here around the time you were ten is that correct?
00:05:56
MS: Yeah.
00:05:58
SK: So where did you go to high school when you were in Rhode Island?
00:06:00
MS: Where did I go to high school?
00:06:02
SK: Yeah, or where were you educated.
00:06:04
MS: We lived in Providence. And we lived down the north end of Providence, up by Providence College, which is off Douglas Avenue. And I initially went to an elementary school on Candace Street, it's no longer, the school is no longer there, The Candace Street School, it was an elementary school and then I went to Nathaniel Green which is still in existence, it's on Chalkstone Avenue in Providence. Graduated there, and then I went to Hope High. Used to walk to Hope High or take the bus to Hope High. That's what they call the North end of the city and uh you used to be able to walk down and uh walk across the city over to Hope High or take the bus. Graduated from Hope High in 41 and then I went to URI which was at that time Rhode Island State College. 41. Does that answer that question?
00:07:05
SK: Yes, yes, it does, it does. Were you involved with anything? Did you do…
00:07:10
MS: I was involved in if I recall correctly (laughing) oh I started…my father, my father induced me to play a musical instrument so I took up the clarinet.
00:07:22
SK: How long did that last?
00:07:24
MS: Well it lasted a few years because I played in the bands at Hope High and when I went down to URI, then Rhode Island State College, I played in the bands there and toured with, when they would have football games out of state I used to, they took the band I would used to go along with those. So that lasted a few years at Rhode Island State College. I only went there for two years and then I went to dental school at Ohio State and at that point my musical career terminated.
00:07:54
SK: I see. So when you were, during that brief period of time that you were in dental school your – who – was your family still running the theatres in Rhode Island.
00:08:06
MS: Yes, yes. My father died very shortly - after he died - before I went to college. He died in 1937. But he always had his sons in this business, well his older sons, and one of them was really a very good businessman and loved the theatre business and he ran the theatres. At that time we had theatres in Narragansett, Rhode Island, Wakefield, Rhode Island, East Greenwich, Rhode Island... a number of them and they – it was a good business and he ran it, knew how to run it and the family was fed and brought up on it.
00:08:44
SK: Good. So back to your confusion, or the end of your dental school, your decision not to continue. What did you do after that?
00:08:54
MS: Well, the war had just begun. Well the war had really not begun, but we knew the war was going to come on so the government was starting to build to make plans for the war. One of the first things they did was develop Quonset Point that's where the Quonset Huts were being built. And it was being built in a location across the road from Quonset Point in a town called Davisville, you can't find the town, but it was an entity called Davisville, RI. And during the... after I graduated Ohio State, June of 41, I got a job there in the summer time and worked as a timekeeper with a number of other guys. It wasn't very, it wasn't a very, pleasant job and it wasn't very challenging and my social life was impacted by it, by the fact that I working there. At any rate, at the end of the summer a number of my friends were going back to school and I was being left alone at this place out in Davisville
00:10:00
MS: and I decided I think I ought to go to school someplace so one of my buddies who I happened to see yesterday - he had started Harvard Law School and he said, "why don't you come to law school?" and I said, "why not?" so I was... it was kind of late for me to apply to Harvard so I applied to Boston University Law School and started there in September of 41 and after ten months there I, the war had already started, December of 41, and I knew I was going to get involved with that so I decided to, because I had seen a piece of paper that there was going to be a need for Japanese Language schools, and I had enjoyed languages, so I decided to apply, and it was being held at Brown. By the American Learned Society, something like that. They were giving out scholarships for that and I applied and I got one and I stated studying Japanese at Brown initially for six months under a great teacher, can't think of his name, I don't think he was a full member of the Brown faculty, he was I guess he had been invited because he was half-Japanese and half-Caucasian but he knew Japanese, as a matter of fact I don't think he could really speak it, but he developed a system of working with Japanese people and knowing languages as he must have had some background in it, he developed the grammar just by asking questions. He was a quite a guy. I used to think about him a great deal, but I haven't thought about him now in a long time so I can't think of his name. So I studied there for about six months with a number of other people and needless to say we were, after a period of time the word got around that Japanese was being taught there and the army sent around, the navy sent around, people to interview some of the students to see if they would be willing to come to a further instructional courses
00:12:00
MS: which they were running in the army and the navy and that's how I wound up at the Japanese-American language school, military intelligence language school in Ann Arbor Michigan. I went there for a year, studied there for a year, and then we were taken to what was supposed to be a secret camp in Minnesota, Camp Savage. And it was a ball. But we were, we became quite a- there were about 100 guys brought in, and what I recall most I think, most stunningly was when we were all inducted into the service around from the New England Area we went to Fort Devinson in Massachusetts, and as we, we took some intelligence test etc. etc. we had our bags full of our clothes etc. and we were moving out and passed through some other army inductees, so wise guys who walked around pretty cleverly saying "There goes the brains of the army, but certainly not the brawn!" (Laughing) Cause we were all sort of students out of college and none of us were really athletes so we were inducted into the army having difficulty dragging our duffle bags because they were so full. At any rate, from there we went to, and this was now January of 42, we went right over to directly to Ann Arbor. And we spent a year and a half. Very good instructors from a lot of the Japanese (phonetic) E-SAY. And from there after a year and a half we went to Camp Savage Minnesota in Minneapolis. Spent a year there and from there we were all shipped out to different places
00:14:00
MS: and they used to say that McArthur was waiting for the Japanese language people to come before they started the move up from Australia. And in some respects in was true because, we had a reunion of some of us on the west coast maybe about 5 or 6 years ago and listened to some of the fellows who did get overseas, I never got overseas, some of the fellows had some really important experiences working with intelligences losses in the Pacific, interrogating prisoners, translating documents, many of them became pretty good at it particularly in translating the language; Japanese characters was very difficult. But they were well selected and proved to be a great help to the cause which is what they could use today over in Iraq, they're having trouble with translators over there.
00:14:56
SK: Now I understand that, when you were in, now it was when you were in Michigan I believe not when before you were going to Minnesota or possibly when you went back. Did you go back to Michigan after you went into Minnesota? You did…
00:15:13
MS: After what?
00:15:14
SK: After you went into Minnesota?
00:15:16
MS: No, only to visit. Only to visit some years later.
00:15:20
SK: Now when you were in Michigan, the servicemen that were studying, they put together a play…
00:15:26
MS: (Laughing) Oh, yeah. It was a musical.
00:15:30
SK: Oh, okay.
00:15:31
MS: It was a musical play.
00:15:33
SK: I do want to hear about this.
00:15:34
MS: Called "Nips in the Bud." We really had some really talented guys in that outfit and uh a couple of fellows were good musicians. I met one of them, the fellow that did some of the music and the lyrics, we met, he came East, I had a reunion with my Japanese Language group here which I organized and we had it in Newport, RI in 1990.
00:15:59
SK: Oh my.
00:16:00
MS: As a matter of fact one of the helpful people was in Brown's faculty he could speak Japanese, I think he's still at Brown I haven't seen him for some years I thought I saw his name in the paper and again I can't think of his name at the moment. But we, I did organize that reunion and out of about 100 members of our group, we were the first group to study Japanese, I think there were about a hundred of us about 65 probably showed up at New Port, it was a pretty good turnout.
00:16:33
SK: Wow, that's great.
00:16:34
MS: We had a great time. As a matter of fact, we were called Company A and my wife wanted, was afraid of how we were going to get around so she created a flag that she had made in Newport, there's a Newport flag maker. Called Company A and we'd walk down the hill and she'd walk down with the flag so we were assembling over here in Newport and we spent quite a good weekend there and of course everybody talked about getting together again but we haven't gotten together since then.
00:17:05
SK: Can you, I'm sorry, can you say a little more about the musical you guys put together and what…
00:17:08
MS: About what?
00:17:09
SK: About the musical, "Nips in Bud."
00:17:11
MS: "Nips in the Bud," yeah.
00:17:13
SK: And what you were doing with it? I understand that you were trying to raise money for…
00:17:18
MS: No, I don't think that we were trying to raise… Let me just think about that. Oh yes, we were, we were. We had a commanding officer whose name was Stewart (S-T-E-W-A-R-T) who was very gung-ho about getting ahead and helping the cause of the war, etc. and he saw what we had done with the show in Ann Arbor we really had sell-out performances and he asked me to consider producing another performance where we could sell war bonds.
00:18:00
MS: And the play had such great word of mouth around Ann Arbor that we did that and we did that and we actually sold about 100,000 dollars worth of war bonds that people had to use as admission to this theatre in Ann Arbor and some years later which was just about maybe ten years ago I went back to Ann Arbor for the first time after the war, I have a nephew who's living there now, We walked by this theatre, the Michigan Theatre, and I said, "This is where we put on our show!"
00:18:30
SK: Oh is that right! I think it may be a movie theatre now.
00:18:34
MS: Hmmm?
00:18:35
SK: I think it may be a movie house now.
00:18:37
MS: Yeah, yeah I think so. But Ann Arbor, you see initially I think the performances were limited to people who were on the Michigan campus. And it was opened up to the general public and the word had been so good, you must know something about Ann Arbor if you come from Michigan…
00:18:58
SK: I do, yeah.
00:19:00
MS: There's an Ann Arbor Daily News or something like that, they always had pieces about our outfit in there.
00:19:04
SK: Is that right?
00:19:05
MS: And we were supposed to be a secret post. (Laughing) We used to march through the streets of Ann Arbor singing all of the fight songs of the different, not the different colleges, but from the different countries, you know the American, the Americans didn't necessarily have a fight song, but the Russians had a great song! Oh I forgot what the name of it was. But we used to march through the streets, we couldn't march, a bunch of, when we used to walk by they used to say, "There goes the brains of the army, but certainly not the brawn!"
00:19:38
SK: Yeah! (Laugh) So after you had left Michigan and gone to Minnesota, what happened after that time?
00:19:50
MS: Well that's where we all started learning, started studying more contemporary translating documents and working closely with them since we had learned basic Japanese translating documents.
00:20:00
MS: A number of our classmates were sent out to intelligence units, they went out to Maryland, to Maryland, they left the outfit. From that point on the rest of us were being trained to go to different locations in the far east. And it was mostly continuing studying the Japanese language, particularly the written language, and translation of written documents or of any documents that might have been commandeered at the time of any of the battles or other things. But it used to be funny to see these bunch of guys standing in the chow line; everybody was going like this on their hands, on the palm of their hands, they would have the characters and they would try to transcribe it and remember the characters by writing it out while they were standing in the chow line. So that's what we did most of the time. In addition to having socials and parties and dances which I ran for a number of them. And the commanding officer had after the success of our show he wanted to ask me if I would consider taking a show to Detroit and different parts of the state and I said – and some of the war factories where they were making the airplanes near Ann Arbor, I forget which town that was. I remember standing on the wings of one of the airplanes there – B-22 or something. But he wanted the word around to get out about this secret organization. We were not supposed to be known to be Japanese language people. But he was gung-ho. I think probably one of his CO's got a hold of him and said, "Listen, this is not what we're here for." So that program ceased after a while. And this was after we left Michigan and during the latter part of our being in Ann Arbor.
00:22:00
SK: So how did you make your way back to Rhode Island? Did you go back to Boston for school?
00:22:09
MS: No, I went…In the service since I was… I had this shoulder kept popping out all the time I couldn't go over seas. So I was sent to San Francisco to prepare for the occupation and I worked there in a post office in San Francisco actually censoring mail that was already coming through going in and out just to test us, train us for work that was going to be done during the course of the operation, this was before the war was over. And that, uh, I never got past, I never got assigned overseas, and at the end of the war I went back to law school. I went back in October…January of 42, January of 42 I went back to Boston University Law School, finished up there in… went back in 45. That makes more sense. Went back in 45 when the war was over and finished my law degree in June of 47. That's one of my old friends who we started out together, we were both in different services, he went he was a good he was – he didn't get Japanese – he was conversant in Spanish so he was assigned to Puerto Rico. But there was no war there. I still see him to this day. He's my law partner for 40 years.
00:23:44
SK: Oh, is that right? Now how did you…were you spending any summers back in Rhode Island during that time after the war?
00:23:54
MS: Yes, after the war right.
00:23:55
SK: What were you doing during those summers?
00:23:58
MS: What was the question?
00:24:00
SK: What were you doing during those summers? Were you working? Were you working for your family? Or your brothers?
00:24:05
MS: Actually, I went back …I had already started my law practice.
00:24:10
SK: Oh, you did!
00:24:11
MS: Yeah, I started my practice in January of 48. I graduated from Boston University Law School in June of 47…six months…we had to study, we had to take the Bar Examination, so we studied for three or four months, took the Bar Exam, passed it and then this partner of mine, Julius Michaelson, who subsequently became the attorney general of the state… We formed a partnership and practiced law together for 40 years, 40 years. And that's when we took on Brown University in a major case…
00:24:49
SK: Yes, now can you tell me about how you…were you both involved in starting the ACLU in Rhode Island or…
00:24:55
MS: No, I was principally involved in starting the ACLU. I think it came about as… after the war there was a kind of a liberal veteran's organization believe it or not called the – American Veteran's Committee – the AVC, and while there I met a few liberal like-minded people like myself and we became friendly. One of them was a labor organizer he represented the United Steel Workers Union of America in Rhode Island and Southern Massachusetts so he became a client of ours and then worked with him to this day, that's what we used to do and to this day, I haven't worked as a lawyer in ten years, but I happened to see him recently, he now lives in Arizona, he's 92 years old. Brilliant, brilliant man, one of the best speakers I've ever heard in anything.
00:26:00
MS: His name was Norman Spitz. He was well known in Rhode Island as a labor organizer, a labor organizer and an economist he had a good impact on legislation in Rhode Island for many years for his lobbying activities. And my friend, my partner Michaelson ultimately became in his seventies the Attorney General of the state. Ran for US senator against Us senator, won the nomination for it, I think in 1980 or 84 against John Chaffee but he lost it by 4,000 votes. Made a very… we all kind of hoped he was going to win, and expected he was going to win the way the returns were coming in. As a matter of fact the day of the election he told me he got a call from some real estate broker in Washington, D.C. who said, "You know, we predi- believe that you're going to win that contest, we're ready to serve you, find a home for you." Didn't work. Lost by 4 or 5,000 votes.
00:27:07
SK: So can you tell me a little more what motivated you to start the ACLU in Rhode Island?
00:27:14
MS: What motivated me? Well, I was in the, in this…I was in the uh…. I suppose I should go back to when I was in law school. I was always quite interested in reading about the development of the first amendment and how it gradually increased in importance to the American people and to our society and I was convinced that I wanted to do a great deal of work with that in, that kind of work, in Rhode Island and particularly in the area of censorship.
00:28:00
MS: And once I started the ACLU I found that I could follow up on that and carry out what I wanted to do. I had always kind of abhorred censorship and our law wasn't too strong on it in those days until some of the decisions were being, Roosevelt, they called it the Roosevelt court of the thirties and the forties. Kind of made it more feasible to take on cases fighting people who tried to censor the movies and in particular in Rhode Island as I pointed out in my book, there was a, and particularly in Providence, there was a license board that would issue licenses for every picture, motion picture that became available that people wanted to put on, that the exhibitors wanted to put on and if the licensing board, which I called the censorship board, didn't approve of the film for some reason or other, there was no license and they couldn't perform. They went to some really terrible extremes to if there was a kiss on the screen they objected to it.
00:29:18
SK: Now was your interest in censorship, especially with the movies, did that sort of stem from your family's work?
00:29:23
MS: Yes it did, it did because I recall that, I think I might have mentioned it in my book I don't know if I did or not, it's been a while since I've read it, I can recall that there was a film dealing with the Spanish Civil War that came out in the United States that a number of communities in the State of Rhode Island banned, the licensing board banned, and one of them was where my father and brother had their theatres in Wakefield and Narragansett, RI.
00:29:53
SK: When was this?
00:29:55
MS: I think that was around 39. I was just, I was just, in the midst of my undergraduate years of college and I got really upset that they were, they had a right to say that you couldn't perform this particular film, couldn't show this particular film, so that kind of always kept that in the back of my mind and that's what got me involved with the Civil Liberties Union when I kept reading about civil liberties and the activities of the American Civil Liberties Union. I kept that in mind when I was in law school and when I first got out of law school and went into the service, and when I got out of the service we had this veteran's organization, the American Veteran's Committee, which was designed to protect people's civil rights and civil liberties and one of the, one of the people that, I think that if you read the book I think I mentioned that, one of the first cases we had was through the American Veteran's Committee was a case where one of our members was arrested because he was putting leaflets on people's cars in downtown Providence. And the leaflets referred to the I think it was, I think…which bill was being legislated at that time…answering, objecting to the, to the development of objections and this one particular guy was arrested and brought before the municipal court judge in downtown Providence and now it comes back to me, I think you'll find that in the book where this fellow was convicted, or no he, he wasn't convicted, he was acquitted by the municipal court judge who was not very well, a judgeship which is not very well respected it's lower, usually handles traffic tickets and things of that nature. But he acquitted this fellow after the police charged him with defacing a car because he put a leaflet on the window of a car.
00:31:48
SK: What was the leaflet for?
00:31:49
MS: The leaflet…he said, "You know the communist party is not so bad. We can deal with the Russians let's get along, we dealt with them during the war, let's get along with them." And, you know it kind of made some sense but he was arrested for putting up this leaflet. I forget who handled this case, I might have mentioned it in the book, I don't know whether I handled it or not, I might have. I remember the judge though. It was Harold R. Carroll who passed away, his son's still practices law here now, Harold R. Caroll Jr. So that's… the ACLU did a lot of that work you know, where they did some (inaudible) work. I can remember that one of things that when Castro became prominent in the early 50's I think it was I can remember being and a number of people were arrested from picketing on behalf of Castro the American Veteran's Committee, and at that time I think we had not started the ACLU, went to their defensive, helped them out and issued statements that these people had a right to distribute leaflets and things of that nature and a number of people called me including the President of the physicians who is a pediatrician, now retired, who, he and I became great friends over the years, spent a lot of time together because of that, but the American Veteran's Committee was kind of a controversial organization nationally and a lot of conservatives began to say that they were lead by communists and that sort of, so publicity was bad and it continued to exist and even to-, I don't know if it still exists today there might still be some remnants of it in Washington, D.C. but it was a very liberal organization; Elliott Roosevelt was supposedly a part of it but he wasn't particularly liberal…
00:33:40
SK: So was you family at the time, were you brothers, still running movie theatres?
00:33:45
MS: Oh, yes they were running theatres.
00:33:48
SK: How long did they run them?
00:33:49
MS: They ran theatres oh I guess until probably 1960s or 1970s in East Greenwich,
00:34:00
MS: Wakefield, RI Narragansett, RI, so they ran the theatres till 60s or 70s and while I was practicing and while I was in law school and the early practicing of law I used to get helped out by that business because law practices take a long time, some time to develop until you make a living out of it but my brothers were involved, they have all since deceased, since I'm the last of seven, the last one remaining of the seven from the family, the seven children.
00:34:35
SK: Was it all brothers?
00:34:36
MS: Two sisters. My last sister passed away this last June.
00:34:41
SK: Did they all continue to live in Rhode Island?
00:34:46
MS: What's that?
00:34:37
SK: Did they all continue to live in Rhode Island?
00:34:49
MS: Yes well, they those that lived… there were two…when we first moved to Rhode Island with my father, two of my brothers, one lived in Schenectady, New York, one lived in New York City, he was the one that took me to the ballgame when I was a kid to see Gehrig and Ruth at Yankee Stadium but they all moved to Rhode Island. My mother said, "Let's all get into the business here, it will be more satisfying for everybody if they were all over here," and that's what happened, they all moved here and ultimately many of them lived here, plus a lot of the nieces and nephews have moved out of the state. One of them still lives in Ann Arbor.
00:35:24
SK: Oh is that right?
00:35:26
MS: Yeah, that's how I got to visit the theatre there two years ago.
00:35:29
SK: So, during that time that you were starting the ACLU at the beginning of the 50s and working with your own private practice at the time, what was your involvement? What was your involvement with the theatre community at that time?
00:35:49
MS: Not very much except for my brother was, my brother kept saying that I should not get involved with controversial cases. If I was going to be a lawyer, I was going to represent, I was going to... somebody asked me to be on the ticket of some way out party to run for attorney general and I was going to and he persuaded me that I ought not to do it because it would affect my practice, he was a pretty conservative guy. But when it came to objecting to films, he never wanted to fight, which bothered the heck out of me and I used to argue with him that you have a right and obligation to put those films on – don't let anybody tell you what to run, ultimately he listened to me a few times but he was a very good businessman and he made sure that everybody in the family had an opportunity to get and earn a living and they all did through that business in one way or another.
00:36:46
SK: So about what time did you start getting involved with the theatre and performance community in Providence and when did you start getting interested in starting a repertory company?
00:36:58
MS: Well in 19- before I started the repertory company?
00:37:00
SK: When did you begin becoming interested in doing that and how did that all evolve?
00:37:06
MS: Well it happened because of my involvement with this show in Ann Arbor I always had in the back of my mind that I would like to do something like this, some writing, producing and we all got involved in that in the service at the time, but when I came back here I became the President of the Jewish Community Center in 1950 and…
00:37:27
SK: How long had the Jewish Community Center been here?
00:37:29
MS: What's that?
00:37:30
SK: At that point how long had the Jewish Community Center been here?
00:37:33
MS: Well this particular building was not here at the time, there used to be a police station back here on Session street and that's where the location of the center was at that time, this was built shortly after the war, I think it was around 19- there's a plaque outside that says it, I think that this was built shortly after the war so I was- became involved with the center. I used to live just a couple blocks away from it, my kids went to the nursery school there at the old police station back here which has been torn down since, since we built this building. And I ultimately became President of the JCC following my law partner and a couple of other guys and…I'm losing track of the question that you're asking…
00:38:33
SK: You were beginning to start talking about theatre and how you got involved with that…
00:38:36
MS: At any rate, the JCC started putting on some plays and I became involved, I acted in one or two. I always had the love of theatre and I used to go back and forth to Boston all of the time to see theatre up there and I said "Well, why don't we try to." Since they opened up the new road it made it easier to get to Boston, but it was a pain in the neck driving back on cold wintery nights. So I said – and a number of people who had participated in the plays we had at the Jewish Community Center decided with me that maybe we ought to try and start a theatre here. We all met at my home and we decided to see what we could do to get it started and we actually did get it started one of our members of - one of our citizens she used to run a theatre downtown Providence with her husband and she still has a theatre up on Cape Cod…
00:39:38
SK: Oh is that right? Do you remember what the theatre she ran with her husband was called?
00:39:42
MS: Was it a eh, it was in a restaurant on Allens Avenue, it was a heck of a good restaurant and she put on some plays there during the summertime and then began to do it in the fall and then those of us and then she and her husband split, and then we decided well why don't we try to put one on ourselves if we're running a theatre here, developing a theatre here which would be year-round for the whole general public and it had a whole different kind of location other than this restaurant which was going out of business that's how we all got together we all got together at my home and we planned and planned and ultimately we were able to put together a small group of people who would look for a site and if you read the book on the theatre, it took us quite a period of time to locate a site but we were- its beginning to come back to me now... we were I guess – I'm looking for the phrase – I guess we saw the success of this little church theatre up on Broad Street which is where Trinity got its first name, Trinity Square, and there was a church there that- there was a minister there, an assistant minister, who loved the theatre and he was putting on some plays there and so one of the people said to me who knew I was working on something like that and whose wife was a member of, ultimately became a very strong and long-time member of the company, she loved to act so they suggested that, "You ought to go up and see one of the plays that this minister was putting on." And we saw what he was doing and the kind of facility he had and we said "Gee this is something great and we could try to get some place like this to put it on," but of course we couldn't find a site and ultimately that worked after some negotiations we worked out with the minister
00:42:00
MS: and the lay committee of that church and became Trinity Repertory Company there, Trinity Square, that was the original name, Trinity Square Repertory Company and we felt, we were also advised by this woman who was the producer who produced in that theatre there that we ought to get ourselves a good director and she recommended this fellow Adrian Hall. And Adrian Hall and I…
00:42:30
SK: Where was he working at the time? Where was he at the time?
00:42:33
MS: At that time he was directing kind of, he was living in New York City where he had come from Texas but he would go to New York city and was living there at the time and put on a number of shows in New York City and had some good reviews so we decided to interview him based on the recommendation of this woman who is still, is involved in theatre, her children are. Anyway we went and met with her and ultimately we, I met with Adrian Hall, who was the director, in New York City, took my family to the Museum of Natural history while I interviewed him across the way and we worked things out very well; we got along well he said he'd like to come and try in Providence and see what it is like. We had difficulty getting a theatre in Providence, but ultimately we found- the church minister was transferred who was putting on the shows, so the theatre was available to us and they were looking for somebody to take over, they needed help supporting their building they weren't getting too many responses, they still have trouble getting many church goers there so we worked out a deal with the Trinity Church people and the director came up and he liked the site, his name was Adrian Hall, who is a brilliant director. So we got started with him and he was a gem, been a lot written about him a couple of books written about him since that time.
00:44:20
SK: Now, so did he come up here right away after you went down and interviewed him or…
00:44:25
MS: Yeah, he came up, I met him in I can't think of the year right now, well it must have been 59 or 60. No, 62 or 63 because we actually started our first performances in 64. So I met him in New York in the fall of 63 and one of the interesting things which I point out in that book after he agreed to come up here and he was going to come up in say January of 64 to meet the potential actors and actresses who were local though he always wanted equity actors, professionals he said, he dropped me a card that says, "Slight Diversion." He was invited to go to Hawaii to explore the establishment of a theatre in Hawaii; you'll find that in the book. We were all a bit discouraged because we had already announced plans for opening the season so this other fellow and I Norman Tillis, who became like the producer, we went to New York City and interviewed some other people there selected another fellow to come up so that we could start the season and we got off to a good start with the first play, the second play was not as good and the third play was not as good. It's when Hall wrote back he says, "If you're still interested in me I'm not going to stay in Hawaii, I'm coming back." And he came back and I'll tell you he set, his first production was a Tennessee Williams play and it, he was sensational. Critics really raved about it.
00:46:08
SK: And this was produced at Trinity Square?
00:46:11
MS: Right, Trinity Square Right. And that was in the spring of 64 and then he cast another play after that and he decided I was going to be in the cast. A play called, "An American Dream." Which is a wonderful play.
00:46:29
SK: Who were you cast as in that show?
00:46:33
MS: Hmm?
00:46:34
SK: Who were you cast as in that show?
00:46:35
MS: Daddy.
00:46:36
SK: Daddy.
00:46:38
MS: Daddy. There was only five characters, five or six characters and I was Daddy. It had some good reviews and, Ted Holmberg, who was the reviewer, became a good friend of mine and he gave me a good review as well as the show and believe it or not people were just fighting for tickets. The hall only held about one hundred people, 125 people. And in that edition that was printed by the Rhode Island Historical Society there's a picture of it and I relate a good deal of this. And there's an article in there in one of their editions if you need a citation I think I might have it at home I'll give it to you, but I'm sure you'll be able to find it. Cause I think it's the only time, though I was never was a member of the society before that, it was the time that I began to see their publication, it was the only one that ever had a, it's the only theatre that ever existed here so they wrote quite a story about it. And that had to be in the early nineties.
00:47:41
SK: So when, so most of the actors at this point were still-
00:47:49
MS: Amateurs. At the beginning. There were one or two who were professionals like Doctor's wife, she was a good friend of mine, she was what they call an Equity member, that's what they call a union member, Equity. She was and there might have been one or two others and we had a summer season that year down at University of Rhode Island. We had more because Hall wanted a professional company, so he brought quite a few people with him, invited them to come up and they all came and some of them worked here for quite a few years, I think one or two of them still do. But hall was here, he was really the one who developed; I mean, did such great work with a theatre company in Boston and elsewhere and developed a great reputation and Trinity became a well-respected theatre organization and today it is part of a group of twelve who are supported by many corporations in New York. I just got a publication, a little announcement of an event they're holding, it only costs a thousand dollars to go, which excludes me, but they raise a lot of money, these are big businesses, they raise a lot of money for different theatres, what they call regional theatres. Minneapolis, San Francisco, not Broadway.
00:49:07
SK: Now how did the transition happen between Trinity Square and what we now know as Trinity Rep? I understand that you at one point bought a building, that the organization bought a building in New York and then tried to move it…
00:49:28
MS: We did move it!
00:49:29
SK: Oh you did move it, oh okay!
00:49:31
MS: It was a building down in the village, down in Greenwich Village which was like a tent but they did a, they built a, they excavated the opening down below it so that the tent was up on top and the excavation was down below and that's where the theatre was. And too, held about a thousand people. And I went down there to see "Man of La Mancha," they had put it on down there
00:50:00
MS: and then we were advised that the it was only going to be there because it was only rented land and that the building had to be torn down, it was going to be discarded and they put out some announcements and asked if anyone was interested in buying it. And we were looking for a bigger theatre here in Providence and we were trying to work out something with the mayor of Providence who was Joe Dorey at the time and also the city of Pawtucket. I ultimately made a deal with the city of Pawtucket to bring the tent there, opposite the city hall there's a big parking lot and we had agreed to put it there, tentatively, but that didn't work out because some of the Pawtucket business people decided that was impact on their business adversely, they didn't want the theatre. And I don't want to get into names about that but at that point I had ceased being the chairman of the board, I had been chairman of the board for seven odd years I think, I had ceased being the chairman of the board and I let the fight go back to Providence. And the mayor at that time who was kind of ridiculed by Adrian Hall in a production of one play and he had a big picture of the mayor and it made him look like a pig. Who, naturally, became quite upset, and Adrian Hall was one of these characters who didn't care who he upset, his artistic needs had to be met, but he really was a brilliant director and really developed the theatre beautifully. So, the mayor at that time had learned that the movie theatre called the Majestic Theatre was up for sale, so I had ceased being chairman of the board so he got together with the chairman of the board who was a woman and they negotiated a deal to buy the Majestic Theatre and that's where the theatre is located now.
00:52:00
SK: Oh wow! Do you remember when that was? Do you remember around what time that was?
00:52:04
MS: Yeah, that was in- that was around 1974, 75. Yeah, they I think that this must be their 25th year, well it's more than that, 29th year. The present director now, Oskar Eustis, he's now here ten year so that would be 94/95. (Pause) Actually, that theatre became Trinity back around 72/73, somewhere in there.
00:52:44
SK: So for about ten year before you all were up in Trinity Square before that, you didn't have any transition spaces?
00:52:52
MS: Yes we did, we also put on a number of plays at the Rhode Island School of Design theatre.
00:52:58
SK: Oh is that right?
00:53:00
MS: That came about as a result of establishing this program called Project Discovery where the federal government followed a suggestion that Adrian Hall had made about making theatre available to young people, people in high schools, and they contracted with the federal government and there were four locations in the United states: Providence, San Francisco, New Orleans, I think maybe some other city, maybe it was up in Minneapolis, or someplace, I don't recall the forth, it might be in the book*, but the federal government had agreed to subsidize with the Department of Education and the National Endowment of the Arts theatre for students on a regular basis, high school students. And we got that program for Providence, and we started that program around 1974-5, it think it's in the book…
00:54:00
MS: and it turned out to be - in Rhode Island - a tremendous success because of Adrian hall's productions, but we used to scream at what some of these kids would do: they would throw paper up on the floor, they would throw candy up on the stage, rather, and they would throw all kinds of things but they finally learned how to watch theatre. And to this day that program still goes on, not to the extent that it was back then, but we were using the Rhode Island School of Design theatre and used it for four years and then it was at that time when we developed a need for the other the new theatre that's why they bought this old Majestic Theatre and made the deal about the Majestic Theatre. I had bought the tent in New York for the purpose of putting it on in either Providence or Pawtucket, I didn't care where as long as it was here so that we could have larger audiences because the tent held about 1000/2000 people when they put on "Man of La Mancha" in New York, so we had to sell, ultimately the tent was sold to one of the insurance companies here and it was located up and they put it up in Smithfield, Rhode Island, someplace up in that area, I don't know if it still exists or not, I don't think so, but they used it for a number of years as storage. But Hall, he did some terrific productions for the students and that became, and when that program was going to end after 4 years you know that the students throughout the state led marches on the state house to make sure that it was supported and continued at the new theatre downtown now. There were marches about the thing; hundreds of them, hundreds of kids went on a weekly march to the state house to convince the governor and the legislature to appropriate monies to continue that program because the federal government stopped supporting that program because it was only supposed to be a program through the national council of the arts, it was only supposed to be an experimental program,
00:56:00
MS: but there's a, they actually had a report that came out, and they must have spent a couple of hundred thousand dollars on the report, looking at all the theaters and of the four theatres that produced, the only place it worked was in Providence. It did not work in New Orleans, did not work either in LA or San Francisco. Providence was the only place it worked because of Hall's productions. He always kept in mind that the kids were going to see this and so it's got to be put on so that they know what it's all about, and they know what theatre is all about and appreciate it. Now, some of the people, some of the kids of course didn't like it, some of the faculty, the teachers didn't like it. We used to have a battle with some of the teachers. It was a program, it wasn't just putting on the plays, but it was a study program where they had material prepared for the teachers of different schools, we had an educational director who prepared the material so that they could follow up on the performances and teach what, go back and review the shows and the plays that they saw and it worked out beautifully. And this federal government as part of their justification for supporting this program put out this three volume report about the program and Providence was the only place where it succeeded. And it was considered a tremendous success and to this day we get money to support that, not as much as we used to get. I think they put on a number of shows now, where they do a number of performances for each show for the high school kids to come in from the different schools. So it proved to be quite a thing and it's amazing that it didn't work elsewhere, but I guess it was the quality of the work. This fellow Hall was brilliant and Oscar Eustis now does equally well.
00:57:54
SK: At this time did they have professional actors in the company when they were working on this Discovery program?
00:58:00
MS: Did they what?
00:58:01
SK: Did they have professional actors in the company at that time?
00:58:03
MS: Oh yes, yes, it was all professional.
00:58:04
SK: And when did that happen, when did that changeover happen?
00:58:07
MS: It never changed; it always continued to be professional.
00:58:10
SK: Well from amateur to professional actors. As you said, sometimes, when you were in the show…
00:58:17
MS: Well they'd always bring people like walk-ons. At the beginning when it first started it was not a full Equity company, now it's a full Equity company. It has been for maybe after the first or second year. After the first or second year of the theatre. It's always been a full Equity company.
00:58:35
SK: So essentially when Adrian came up…
00:58:37
MS: Adrian was here about 20/25 years, of the actors have been here 20/25 and even gone on many of them have passed away some really good people including some technical people. But the federal program from the point of view of Rhode Island was very successful and the federal report shows that. It really lauds the work that Hall did, as we all have over the years.
00:59:09
SK: So how did, what happened after you all moved out of the Rhode Island School of Design stage?
00:59:16
MS: Well that's when we took over the Majestic Theatre.
00:59:20
SK: And Adrian transitioned over there as well as others….
00:59:22
MS: Yes he worked there. We ultimately closed down the facility up on Broad Street at the church because we have two theatres at the old majestic theatre there. Have you ever been there? We have the downstairs theatre and the upstairs theatre.
00:59:40
SK: Yes, I have. I'm going there tonight actually.
00:59:43
MS: Hmmm. What's that?
00:59:45
SK: Down to the Majestic, I'm going down there this evening.
00:59:48
MS: This evening? So am I.
00:59:50
SK: Are you?
00:59:51
MS: Is today Fri-? No, tomorrow's Saturday. I'm going tomorrow night.
00:59:54
SK: I'm going to see Henry IV.
00:59:55
MS: Great. I'm going to see it tomorrow night and then there are two more on Sunday. Are you going over the weekend too?
01:00:02
SK: Well, the only one I'm going to be able to make it to is the one this evening, but I'm very excited for it.
01:00:07
MS: How did you get the tickets for that? This probably should be off the record.
01:00:12
SK: Oh, it's fine, it's fine. A friend picked them up for us.
01:00:15
MS: Oh, is that so?
01:00:19
SK: But anyhow, so anyway, back to when they moved into the Majestic. You were saying, you were commenting about the building.
01:00:28
MS: Well, when they, we took over the building, Hall was not satisfied with it as a, and that was understandable, it was a movie theatre that was huge, you know it had about three-thousand seats, a balcony here and a balcony there and all that sort of business. So they put together some designers and some architects, they reworked the theatre a number of times to the point where they finally have it now where we have a small space downstairs and the larger auditorium upstairs. And it's worked out very well; people enjoy really both facilities. When the work is good and when it's not good, it's still pretty good. And so it's been a pretty…and with this new director Oskar Eustis, who's a worthy successor to Adrian Hall, Adrian was a brilliant director and so was Eustis, but Eustis is more of a, he's able to get more out of the community than Adrian Hall did. Adrian Hall didn't care about the community, they only, he kept saying they get in the way. And ultimately even I got in his way, I think.
01:01:34
SK: Now, what was your involvement with Trinity at this time? You were chairman for…
01:61:39
MS: I was chairman for seven years. They put in the program book, and I have to have it corrected, they put down twelve years, I wasn't chairman for twelve years. I don't think I would have survived. (Laughing) But, I'm still on, I'm an honorary board member and I love going to the theatre and I bring people to the theatre all of the time and I invite people to come and they give me tickets to invite people so its very nice and very helpful; we build up an audience that way. And it's quite a very uh, the board is really very devoted and most of the board's responsibility is to make sure that there's enough money so that we don't go bust. There's always an annual fund campaign. And these are very supportive people, people who are really dedicated. Some of the people who are very dedicated are Doctor Joseph Valery and his wife, she was chairman of the board for several year and the people who are great supports of Brown University like the family, whose name should come to me…they're very well known in the community for supporting different things…
01:03:00
SK: After the, but after the theatre moved into the Majestic did you have any direct involvement or were you essentially just…
01:03:11
MS: Well, I was on the board. I was chairman, I don't think I was chairman, I don't think I was chairman at the time. I was on the board, continuing on the board for a number of years. And now I'm on the honorary board, retired from the regular board. But I continued on the board for a number of years and have always been a supporter. Certainly I can't support it financially the way others do but I try to do the best I can.
01:03:40
SK: Right. But at this same time what was your legal work like?
01:03:45
MS: Well, I had a very fascinating law practice. Probably my most famous case was this case against Brown University.
01:03:55
SK: Yeah, tell me about it.
01:03:56
MS: Sex discrimination case. Louise Lamphere v. Brown University.
01:04:00
MS: She used to be a, she used to be in the Anthropology department. She was a very bright and brilliant woman, and she ultimately became, from what I've read and heard, the President of the American Association of Anthropologists. She, when she was finally offered tenure, which she was seeking from Brown University, when she was finally offered tenure after a long and lengthy and expensive battle with Brown University she resigned from Brown and went to the University of Arizona. Or the University of New Mexico, it might have been that. But ultimately about five or six years later she became President of the National Anthropological Society. And she has a wonderful reputation in that field, I guess. But the case not only involved the anthropology department, it involved all the procedures at Brown University with respect to hiring and promotion and the case as a result of what we call a Consent Decree of Settlement, revised, if one wants to find it historically, I'm sure the Brown records have it, the Brown Daily Herald has it, other departments at Brown probably have it, revised many of the practices and procedures of the departments at Brown University with respect to hiring and firing and tenure and promotions and all that business to eliminate discrimination based on sex and color. And I think it has worked out pretty well. You'll find many black members of the faculty at Brown, many of the administrators are black, Brown University legal council is black, I don't know if you know who she is or not…
01:05:53
SK: I have never met her, no.
01:05:54
MS: Hmmm?
01:05:55
SK: I have never met her.
01:05:56
MS: Yeah, well, you don't want to meet anybody in the legal community – but she has quite a staff. She has quite a staff. So they have come quite a ways I guess, promotions of, promotions in departments where, people in different departments have a few more gratified as a result of this very lengthy settlement, agreement, which detailed the changes that needed to be made in the methods of hiring, firing and promotions amongst the faculty. It didn't deal with the administrative help, it didn't deal with the administrative help, but it was the forerunner of another sex discrimination case that followed up with it at the University of Rhode Island, which I handled. And did the same thing up there to changes practices for hiring, hiring and firing practices and tenure procedures. In other words, giving the faculty people more rights than they had in their, in their, what are they called, departmental and faculty rules. And both cases were settled, including the University of Rhode Island case, there was another case, other than that I used to handle a lot of, a number of cases for the Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU. I used to handle a lot of ordinary cases like medical malpractice, automobile accident cases.
01:07:30
SK: Could you tell me a little, did you do any censorship cases? I understand that you did some things for individual artists about obscenity in their art.
01:07:41
MS: Yes, there were. I don't know if I wrote about that in the book or not.
01:07:53
SK: Any sort of censorship cases that were later on in your career.
01:08:00
MS: Oh yeah, there were a number of them. There was one in particular that had a great deal of publicity there was a number of students, people at the School of Design, artists, who decided to open up their own exhibition hall across the street from the college, this was on North Main Street, I think. And they had a lot of nude pictures and they had invited, they had invited artists, photographers form their fellow faculties and Connecticut and the police raided it. The police raided the, closed down, the art exhibit on North Main Street. I think it was 101 N. Main Street, some place like that. And they got a hold of me and together with a young woman with working with me, working for me and ultimately became a partner for a short period of time, then she went off on her own and she's practicing very successfully now, Lynette Labinger, and she handled the case with me, I think she did most of the work in the United States District Court where we enjoined the police department for interfering with that exhibit and the judge, within a short period of time, no problem at all, the same judge that decided the Lamphere case, many Brown people were upset about it, but they weren't too upset with this other case when he decided in our favor that the police department had no right to close it off. What was happening was a lot of people had the opportunity to pose in the nude for photographers and he tried to shut that down, they tried to shut it down. So that was all eliminated.
01:09:48
SK: Do you remember when this was?
01:09:50
MS: Oh, when this was, this was, probably, must have been in the 80s. I think it was after the settlement of the Lamphere case, which was '78 I think.
01:10:00
MS: So that had to be in the early eighties, and this young woman who was an associate of ours ultimately went out and started her own practice and became partners with another firm. She has a very successful practice, and she's the one that handled Brown University, the case against Brown University for the women athletes and that was a major case that went to full trial. Actually, ultimately appealed and went to the United States Supreme Court after Brown lost it. All of the colleges in the country were, and this was on Title Nine, application of Title Nine, but she won that case, this former associate of mine, she had a couple of other people working with her and my former law partner, the former attorney general was on the opposite side of the state, or for the case. So I try to get them together once and a while, I couldn't get- But I was not involved with that case, but that case went before Judge Raymond Patini again and a lot of people felt that he was prejudiced toward women. But he was a great judge. But the case was sustained; his decision was sustained by this certain court of appeals and also by the United States Supreme Court. So that's the reason why, I believe, you see so many more women athletes and women's programs for athletes at Brown University. And as a result of that decision many colleges have changed their practices and procedures with respect to their athletic programs. Although there have been other cases as well subsequent to that other colleges and universities who say, "They can't tell us what to do." But the law can.
01:11:45
SK: Were there any other cases that you remember that had to do with either individual artists or were you, did you ever have to represent Trinity?
01:11:55
MS: I don't think so, we never…
01:11:57
SK: Or any other part of the artistic community in Providence?
01:12:00
MS: Any other part of what?
01:12:02
SK: The artistic community.
01:12:05
MS: I don't think there were any other cases. (Pause) There may have been, there may have been some initiation of cases that never went very far because the law had become so clear with respect to censorship, with respect to books and motion pictures and plays. So there, I can recall there were a couple of theatres that put on some real porno kind of stuff. But there's nothing wrong with porno other than having to watch it. And they resisted and ultimately the cases were dropped by the police who tried to stop them. There used to be a whole, total censorship committee in the City of Providence, when I say a total censorship, the city licensing board felt that it was their obligation to review all films to make sure that the public would see the appropriate films. I think ultimately they gave up; they don't do it anymore because what you see today on the screens, and I don't think you'll see it too much in the theatre anymore, but Trinity never did have a problem really with respect to that kind of censorship. None of that seems to exist now and the ACLU doesn't really have to confront that now, they take on a lot of other cases now and I'm not too active in them anymore, but I did for years except I support them. They have a great executive director Stephen Brown who is very up on his toes to any kind of violation of the Bill of Rights, he's right there taking on anybody and sometimes he takes on cases - which I've never told him about - which don't seem to be civil liberties cases but he takes them on and he wins them anyway. Because he feels that they're an affront to people and their sensibilities.
01:14:07
SK: When did you stop being involved with the ACLU?
01:14:09
MS: I never really stopped. I've always supported them, but I never really stopped being involved, I've always supported them.
01:14:18
SK: Did you stop practicing for them when you stopped your own practice?
01:14:22
MS: Well, you know, down through some of the years before they had a, I'm just trying to think now, they've had a full-time executive director for some years, many years now so they've had a lot of volunteer lawyers. Of course, I think subsequent to some of these decisions and cases that I had, cases that went to the Supreme Court, a lot more lawyers would volunteer to participate and then for a long time they were being awarded attorney's fees under the law, and the federal law still permits that. There was a decision the state called which cuts out attorney's fees to winning lawyers in these civil liberties cases and that's impacted a great deal on the Rhode Island ACLU. Of course they were getting a lot of lawyers who would volunteer because they ultimately got paid and then the Civil Liberties Union would share some of those proceeds and that's why the ACLU financial may be ultimately, may be some day that will be changed by the legislature. Of course the present executive director of the ACLU in Rhode Island has played a very important role, he's well respected, takes on many unusual cases and he is well respected in the legislature. They haven't provided any annual sum of money through the legislature like they appropriate to everybody else, but the ACLU manages to get through with a lot of volunteers and volunteer lawyers. A lot of lawyers in the ACLU don't necessarily get fees in state cases, the way they did in the past as a result of the Supreme Court decision of Rhode Island about 2 or 3 years ago, but they play a good role now and I'm very proud of what they've accomplished.
01:16:19
SK: When did you stop your practice?
01:16:24
MS: Too long ago. I was partnered, I practiced with…until around…let's see I started in 1960…I was practiced with my partner Julius Michaelson who was the Attorney General of the state, we practiced together 40 years and I think we started '64 so that would be around 2000/2004 when we broke up our partnership. And there were other, quite a few lawyers who were in the firm too. This woman, the lawyer that I told you about, Lynette Labinger, she was with us a number of years and she left before we stopped practicing then there were a couple of fellows who, one fellow is now a judge in the family court who was considered for the Supreme Court who was with us for about 20 or 25 years. Another lawyer has just passed away; three or four of the lawyers have already passed away so…I forget the question now, what was the question?
01:17:34
SK: Oh I was just asking when you stopped practicing?
01:17:39
MS: Oh I stopped practicing – full-time –1990. I continued to handle a number of cases up until around 2000, just individual cases that were remaining over that I handled until I wound them down. And I still take; I'm not filing any cases in court any more, but I still go to, try to keep myself educated in the law. I personally became a member of a youth group that helps out in the family court and I've worked with them for a couple of years, not as a lawyer, but as a counselor for young people who needed some help. So I still have been around the courts, particularly around the family court the last couple of years, but nothing in the Superior Court or District Court or the State Supreme Court or the Federal Court.
01:18:43
SK: And on top of that you come here and swim three days a week, it sounds like you keep yourself pretty busy.
01:18:51
MS: What's that?
01:18:52
SK: It sounds like you're keeping yourself really busy.
01:18:53
MS: Well, not busy enough. I have a wife who is very busy. She runs the Holocaust museum here. Boy, does she put in time.
01:19:04
SK: Well, I think that we will probably wrap it up right here. I don't want to keep you any longer if you have to get to lunch. Thank you.
01:19:14
(Brief Banter)
MS: I hope that this was what you want.
01:19:30