Interviewer: Rosa Miller

Interviewee: Mark Lerman

Interview date: October 29, 2003

Miller: Do you want to start by telling me a little bit about how you came to be here at the Perishable?

Lerman: Sure. In, umm, let's see, let me back up a little. In 19-1 came here to Providence in January of '88. And I transferred to the Trinity Rep Conservatory-I was in grad school at UCal San Diego MFA Directing program, and I didn't like that program. I was there for about a year and a half, and I transferred to the Trinity Rep Conservatory. So, that's how I came to Providence. And unbeknownst to me at the time, that's how I ended up running Perishable Theatre because at that time the man who ran Perishable Theatre was the director of the Trinity Rep Conservatory. His name was David Eliet, and uh, he was, you know, my teacher at the Conservatory, and when I graduated in May of '89, it was also his last year there, May of '89 was his last

Miller: At Trinity or at Perishable?

Lerman: At, at Trinity. Um, because that was the year that Ann Bogart-in May of '89 Ann Bogart was transitioning to come in as the new Artistic Director. And when she came in to Trinity, she did a huge sweeping, so David Eliet was asked, was let go as [unintelligible] the conservatory.

Miller: What was his role at the-at Trinity?

Lerman: He was the director of the Conservatory.

Miller: Okay.

Lerman: And that was through May of '89. So then all of a sudden, here he was in Providence, I had just graduated, he was in Providence, he had been doing this job for at least ten years. So, he had Perishable happening on the side, it had no space, it was running out of the basement of his house, it was just a touring children's theatre company. So that had been happening for the last five or six years in that capacity. An office in his basement, and basically that was it. And he decided to rent some space on Washington Street, and make a bigger go of it at least for the first year that he was not running the conservatory. So he rented space above Blake's Tavern, which is on Washington Street, it's a third floor loft space, and that was the first year Perishable had a home as a theatre. I worked there and other small theatres that first year out of conservatory. You know I graduated, I was hanging out in Providence, I thought for one more year. And I got jobs directing, at Perishable, what was the Alias Stage, which is now called the Sandra Feinstein-Ganun Theatre, and at Wickendon Gate which is now called New Gate Theatre. So

Miller: Me all those theatres downtown, or are they...

Lerman: They were all downtown, now they're kind of spread out. The Gam is now in Pawtucket, New Gate Theatre was on Matthewson Street and now they're kind of homeless, looking for a space. And Perishable. And Perishable hired me in a couple capacities. I directed one of their touring children's shows, and I directed something in their new facility. And again their facility was as a loft space, third floor loft space, not fully to code.

Miller: Was there seating in there?

Lerman: There was seating, like 45 seats, and uh, you know certainly not handicapped accessible, not-mixed grab bag of equipment, it just, but it was space, it was an empty room on the third floor. So we made it a theatre. So at the end of that year, that was, now we're talking a year later, like May of '90, David got ajob offer to move to run the Conservatory at the Cleveland Playhouse. So he took it, and he knew I was thinking of starting my own theatre company. I'd been talking about that all along. And I was going to move to Northampton to do it. And he said, 'Look, I already have Perishable, it's incorporated, it has 50lC3 not for profit status, it has a board of directors, you have the space, do you just want to take it over.'

Miller: Wow.

Lerman: And I said, well, why not. So, ahh, here I am, whatever thirteen and a half years later, still in Providence, still running Perishable Theatre, had no intent of being in Providence when I came here in '88 for more than a year and a half--[both laugh], and uh, that, that's how I got here.

Miller: Wow. So did you grow up in California?

Lerman: No, I'm an East Coaster. My one stint in California was for grad school. So I grew up, uh, let's see, zero to five in Rochester, New York, and then five to ten in Montreal, Canada, and ten to seventeen in Atlanta, Georgia. Then I went to undergrad in Philadelphia, and when I graduated from undergrad I spent a year in New York, uh, interning with two theatre companies, two of the kinda more, kinda interesting, more world-renowned, experimental theatre companies, one's called the Worcester Group, and the others called Mabu Mines.

Miller: What are they called?

Lerman: Mabu Mimes, uh, m-i-n-e-s, not like the mime-mimers, but Mabu Mines. And that was again my first year right out of college, uh, in New York, down in TriBeCa, and then I applied to grad schools that same year. And got accepted to, actually the Trinity Rep Conservatory, and to UCal San Diego, and some others. And I went to UCal San Diego because it was a full MFA program, and again, spent a year and a half there, didn't like it, or San Diego, really, and came back East.

Miller: Wow. So you're a bit of a nomad?

Lerman: So a bit of a nomad, but mainly an East Coast nomad, and I like the East Coast.

Miller: Yeah. So how did you get started in theatre? Was-were people in your family involved in it?

Lerman: Nope. Abh, high school, in some capacity. More in college. High school I had a core group of mends who basically made up the outdoor club, like we went hiking together every weekend. And most of the same group of mends were the tech crew for the theatre productions.

Miller: This is high school, in Atlanta?

Lerman: High school in Atlanta.

Miller: Okay.

Lerman: So, that's where I started doing theatre. I just started you know, hanging out and doing tech stuffin high school. Never act-didn't want to act, or anything like that, but kinda, but liked hanging out back, you know, backstage, and enjoyed it, a lot of it was social too, I like hanging out with the people I was hanging out with, and wearing black tshirts in high school, and that's what I did! [laughs] So I uh, well I went to college, I knew that I was gouna still do theatre-I didn't know I was going to major in theatre. In fact, I didn't, I went in thinking I was gonna major either in pre-vet, uh medicine, or in marine biology.

Miller: Wow.

Lerman: Maybe even electrical engineering. Those were my three-that's what I thought as a little freshman coming in. But, despite all that, I knew I'd do theatre. So certainly, I had signed up for different theatre companies when I got there

Miller: Where were you in college?

Lerman: University of pennsylvania. And at that time, they did not have a theatre department. It was part of the English major. And so you could major in theatre, but it was, I mean it was part of the English department. So I conld major in theatre, but it was all administrative English Department. So it was kind oflike a puzzled together kind of major. But it was accepted, and so you could major in theatre.. .and again I didn't know I was going to do that until halfway through.. . after the end of my sophomore year my guidance councilor called me in and said 'Well you've fulfilled every distributional requirement,' because I had taken some of everything, in every area. And he said, 'But you have no major, and you have two years, and you better [laughs] you better think about it now or you're going to be here for more than two years.' [both laugh] So, I said, hrnm, and I remember trying to figure what, ok what I was going to major in. And, I remember one conversation with my mother back in Atlanta. And I was trying to decide what to do, and I said, she, she asked, 'Well, who do you enjoy spending more time with? The people in your pre-med classes--your pre-vet classes? Or the people in your theatre classes?

Miller: Good question.

Lerman: And I said 'Well I really enjoy hanging-all my mends are people in the theatre.' Uh, I maybe, my roommate, who was my roommate for four years, was premed, and obviously I was mends with him, but that was it. He was the one anomaly, everyone else was in theatre, all my mends. And so, you know, she said to think about that. My father, I should note, was a doctor, was an optomologist. And so, but both parents-both my parents have a great-are great fans of the arts. They collect a lot of art, they, when we go to, you know we traveled a lot as kids, with the whole family, I would travel, and for them traveling meant seeing museurns, galleries, and going to theatre, or umm, so-or dance-so I was brought up to participate in the arts. So, again, knowing that my parents have a great passion for the arts, and a great dispassion for most of the people that my father was colleagues with, you know, basically saying you know, you have to hang out at a lot of functions with other people and you know, doctors in the community, and saying you know, she was saying they-she said think about that. You know, do you want to be hanging out with those people for the rest of your life. And so I said hmm, ok, and I went back and I declared myself a theatre major, and finished up and was one oflike I think four or five my year, cause, again there weren't many back then. I think they've, since then they've really done more to establish the theatre program at Penn, but back then there wasn't much. And actually that's-I've said this before to people, I think that's a big-something happened that I hadn't planned on too, which was, because it wasn't an official undergraduate department in theatre, and because it didn't have a graduate component to it, I was given a lot of freedom as an undergrad. I could do anything. And I did-it was all up to me. So as an undergrad I did set design, line design, I directed shows, and there was no one telling me what to do. So I had no idea what I was supposed to do and not do, I just did it. And so, uh, as a result, I think that bode well for my training, because then I went to grad school later, and conservatory training, but I had a context for how I liked to work, and a reference point, so when people started telling me how I should do it, I could decide whether I agreed with them or not. And, I tell a lot of people that I think in general I would err on recommending people not go to an undergraduate program with an intense theatre program, because--or with a big graduate program, because then you become subservient to all the grad students, so if you have a big graduate theatre program and you're an undergrad there, you're not going to be able to do anything. No way they're going to let you design sets or direct shows. But you are, you're it, and there's no one else there to compete with. So as a result I think that really is something I would recommend for people who are going into college.

Miller: A small department?

Lerman: Yeah, I mean go to a place where there's not a big graduate program, and really just you know, they can have full departments, but if they have a really big established graduate training program, you're not going to be able to do as much, in general, as an undergrad. And I would say, let, go play, have fun, figure it out, get your chance to, before then people start telling you how to do it and not do it. Then, if you do it in your undergrad and you want that in Masters, in MFA, then I think you'll be in a much better place to then go to graduate school and have a-and again be the big cheese in the graduate program and uh, I didn't get trapped as an undergrad if you're in the wrong program, and you really think you want to pursue theatre.

Miller: What do you think about undergrad conservatory programs?

Lerman: This is not to say there aren't some great ones out there, but in general, umm, well you know it kind of depends on what they let you do. Ifuh-I think it's more about whether or not there's a big graduate program affiliated with it, because if there is a big graduate program, all the energy's about the graduate program and the undergraduates get lost in the shuffie.

Miller: As in anything.

Lerman: As in anything. And so, if you have an undergrad conservatory, it could be great then, because the focus is you and you are there to learn and try, and to do things. You know, you have chances to direct as an undergraduate. And that's great. And again, I'm looking at it from this perspective of a director, not a perspective as an actor. I did some acting, but umm, you know you need to-you can learn so much as an assistant director, but ultimately just need to get in there and figure out how you direct. And everyone does it differently, and you can watch other people do it, but only to a point, and one of the great things that helped me as a director was that I did some of everything. I started off, you know, in tech in high school, undergrad I started off not directing but doing lighting design and set design, I even stage managed a little for a show, then I decided-then I started directing, umm, and actually when I went to-one of the reasons I liked Trinity Rep Conservatory when all's said and done, I had gone to grad school for a little bit, was that then the man who ran it, David Eliet, had a philosophy that if you were an actor you had to learn about directing and playwriting. If you were a playwright, you had to take directing and acting classes, and if you were a director, you had to be a playwright and take acting classes. And the conservatory had a designed program that had those three components. And I think that was great training because then as a director I had to, in front of my peers, act. And I had to write a play, and sit there and give it to someone else and let them direct it.

Miller: This was at the Trinity Conservatory?

Lerman: Yeah. And so I had the experience of what every playwright goes through, which is having someone else take your words, and bring them to life. And, it's painful. And so you know, it helps me now, you know I'm committed to developing new plays right now, and certainly that helps. I understand what the playwright's going through because I've been there. I understand what the actor's going through. I understand what it's like to, you know, have the director sit down in the back row on opening night and you're the one on stage. And so I know what that experience is. So, as a director, I think one I can communicate with actors and playwrights well, because I've had their experience and I know what they're going through. And I think that's a key part of what was the training program then at Trinity. It's changed a lot since then, because it was his leadership, and he was a playwright and a director running the program. And so, he really made sure that you understood everything.

Miller: So what draws you to directing, as opposed to acting, or playwriting?

Lerman: Well, I mean, I tried some acting, and I quickly decided that lots of people could do it better than I could, so that was an easy choice. And, I tried playwriting, and it didn't come easy [laughs], but, ultimately what draws me to directing is that I have, you know, a vision of how I like to see it done, and it's kind of interesting-you know, I enjoy all the other components of theatre. Design, acting, lighting. But, I never felt like I could take anyone individual piece of that, as a playwright, as an actor, or as a designer, and take it where I wanted to. But as a director, working with artists who could do that, then I could take it-then I could take the whole. I didn't like-you know I was never-I always felt frustrated as a set designer that it wasn't-it didn't get to that place. My perfonnance as an actor was ok, never got-but, I felt-there were limits. There were things I couldn't do as a set designer, as a visual artist. Things I couldn't do as an actor, things I couldn't do as a writer. But there are things-but I knew enough about everything that I could do a lot by taking that group of artists and pushing them farther. So I felt like I could actually express myself better, ultimately as a director, and I felt that I could get other people to express themselves better as a director. Like I felt like I could take peopleand push them, and get them farther than they could without me. And so I think those things made me realize that that's what I enjoyed doing, that's what I was better at doing, and, more and more recently over the years I've started to develop new work, or built projects. And I am more of an acter, so I'm not a playwright, cause I like to work with a playwright, but the piece I did last year, "The Long Journey to Whereto," started with an idea, a framework of images that I wanted, so it was conceived by me, but built by a company of actors, designers, and a playwright, together. So it wasn't a traditionally built piece. And that's what I like doing more and more. It's kind of, again, it's coming up with the whole concept of what a piece can be, or an idea for a piece, or maybe you can start with seven images like, ok I have seven images-which is how I started "The Long Journey to Whereto"-here are these seven images, we're gonna make a piece out of it. And I then put together a company of artists who wanted to work in that way, who were comfortable, found that exciting, you know, no script to work off of, and the designers helped create the script as much as anybody. And basically it was exciting and scary. I went to the designers and said, here's your chance. So, based on these images, you start throwing stuff at me. And same thing with the actors. With the actors we did improvisations based around these images. And the playwright would watch rehearsals, and also go write based on these images. And we'd start bringing in pieces of text, and trying them, or videotapes in rehearsals and give' em to the playwright, and over the course of the year, built the piece.

Miller: Wow. So what's important, and different, about a production like that from a traditional production where everyone is in their roles, and has a script?

Lerman: Well, it's just very, it's you know, it's just the way that excites me the most. Now I work the other way too. You know, when I'm developing a new-like this spring I'll develop a new play that's been written. Again, it's a new play, so it's going to be a step removed from what I just described, but it's not a production of Shakespeare that's been done and done and done. And you can reinterpret Shakespeare from now to eternity, but still, in my mind, it's been done. It doesn't mean I don't like going to see a good interesting production of Shakespeare, but it's not what I want to put my energy into. So, ultimately, in some ways I guess working on a built piece, which is what I like to call it, gives me the most satisfaction because you know, it's kind of trying to see it through an initial impulse that was mine, getting all this input from all these people that I desperately need their input on. They can design better than me, they can act better than me, so they're there to help collaborate with me, take these ideas and take them to this other place. And I guess when you start with a script, it's similar, in tenns oflike, gathering all the people together, but still obviously you're trying to fulfill the script, you're trying to bring that script to [unintelligible] this place. And so the difference I guess is I'm more the playwright too. And ultimately, for me theatre's a very collaborate process, I mean I am the one who makes-I tell people that, you know, I want them to be able to make ideas, suggestions, but I'm the one who decides yes or no to all their ideas and suggestions. Because it doesn't work by democracy. It gets messy when you try to do it by democracy. But, it does work when there's really an open space, and people feel comfortable enough to throw out all their ideas, and the way I work is I truly, you know, I'm up front and honest, and I tell people, 'That's great, I don't know about that one, let's try that idea.' I'll bring in my ideas and I expect them to honor my ideas the same way I honor theirs. But they all have to accept the fact that the person who says yes or no at the end of the day is me. And I say that upfront whenever I start the company-uh, to work on a piece. I say, 'Look, here's the parameters, and I want you to have a lot of input in this process, but you need to buy into the fact that at the end of the day, if I say no, you're accepting that.' So, I make that clear, and that's how I get to-the more I work with artists, the more they know how I work.

Miller: Does that provoke conflicts?

Lerman: Oh, everything in theatre provokes conflicts, I mean any-there's always-I don't think it provokes any more or less conflicts than anything else. If anything, I'm pretty-the way I work generally is pretty conflict-free, because I'm pretty open. And I say it upfront, and I do listen to people's ideas, and they know it. They can tell. I mean, they see me take them, when they work, and implement them. And they also see me go no, I don't think that's-you know it doesn't mean it's a bad idea, it's just not part ofthis project. And so as long as they see that I'm doing that, honoring their ideas, then generally I don't have a lot of conflict.

Miller: So what keeps you in theatre? I mean, it's exhausting... ML. It is exhausting. What's really exhausting is running a theatre company, which is really different from being a director or an artist. Because most of your job is not being an artist. When you're running a theatre company, most of your job is fundraising, administration, and the day-to-day, and a small part of it is directing. Or, whatever your artistic bent is. You know, most artistic directors are directors, but not all. Some are actors.

Miller: How would you say your time is broken up between the two? Like fifty-fifty, or

Lerman: Uh, I would probably say more like 75% on non-artistic related matters, and 25% artistic. Um, and we're trying to change that, actually. I'm trying to-having done this thirteen and a half years, I'm trying to kind of -every year I stop and see what worked and didn't work, and how do I change it. And so I'm certainly constantly trying to figure out, if I put more into this organization, how to let myself get more out of it too, you know, find more time-you know up that to 40% instead of25%. But I'm also not, you know, I'm not fooling myself. It's never going to be more than fifty-fifty at best. There's just a lot to running a company, and a lot of that is fundraising, and I'm the visible face of the organization in the community, and I have to go out there and do fundraising. It's something I can do, I know the-I have the contacts, I know the people, it's part of the job of being an artistic director. So that's a very different job from being a director. You know, so the art part, is, you know so how do I find time for being an artistic director, is because the pay-off is I get to do what I want to do. You know, your choices as a director are to be a freelance artist, or to run your own company. And if you're a freelance artist you're at the mercy of other people deciding what you're going to do. So for me, running around and saying, 'Hey can I direct that production,' that, you know, looking at their season and saying, you know, 'Can I direct that play,' or-was something that I did a little of, and I'm capable of doing. And I can enjoy it-it's not something I want to commit my life to. Um, and, so knowing that, I realized I knew I had to start my own company. [Unintelligible] years ago I was going to go to Conservatory, and go start my own company in Northampton. I knew that's what I had to do, because I wanted to do the work I wanted to do. I knew my options, that, you know, unless you become a quote-unquote superstar in your field, and then you can call your own shots, the only way you're gonna be able to do that is to run your own company. That's partly why right out of college I went and joined, as an intern, Mabu Mines and the Worcester Group. Because they were two company-driven, you know, experimental theatre companies, doing their own work, creating new work in funky ways, you know, new work in new ways, company-built pieces. So I knew early on that's what excited me. And I partly knew that because in undergrad I was part of the experimental theatre community. You know there was kind of an undergraduate community, there were the people who did opera and people who did musical theatre, and the people who did the more straightforward theatre, and there was a group called "Intuitons" at Penn who was the experimental theatre group, and that's who I joined. And that's who I hung out with junior and senior years in high-in college. And that's when I realized ok this is what I like, these are the people I like, this is the kind of work I like, you know, this kind of collaboration, uh, the aesthetic of the kind of work, you know, so I knew that's what led me to the Worcester Group and Mabu Mines, and that's kind of what slowly led me to, you know, all the paths.

Miller: So how did that experience in New York shape you, as an artist?

Lerman: Um, it just helped confinn what I wanted to do. 'Cause I was an intern-I mean I was an intern with world-famous theatre companies. So what that means is, I did any grunt work that they wanted me to do in exchange for being allowed to watch rehearsals. I went in with no expectations that the Worcester Group and Mabu Mines were going to hire me [laughs]. I just went in going, I'll do anything you want me to do, but in exchange that you know, when rehearsals are happening, I want to be there. I don't want to be stuck in the mailing room when you're having a rehearsal. I'll do bulk mail, fine, I'll clean up, fine, but I need to do it at times when it still allows me to watch rehearsals. And they said sure, and that's what I did. And it just basically confinned really, that yeah, this is where I want to be. Um, it didn't so much-it wasn't like I had these earth shattering, eye-popping, eye-widening, you know, opening experiences, it's more like yeah this is the kind of work. And they're two very different kinds of companies. One company fought all the time, one company did not. So it's just interesting to see the dynamics of the way the companies were structured. Um, the one that fought a lot had like four or five people of equal weight kind of running the company. And the other one was a company that clearly had one person with the vision. So, that helped shaped me be-the path I wanted to take. It didn't necessarily mean that the work where the fighting happened, the work was any lesser quality, it just was a whole different kind ofprocess. And it wasn't the process that interested me as much as the other kind of process did.

Miller: What's special about being a theatre in Providence? What's special about Providence?

Lerman: Uh, well, a couple things. Um, let's see-actually I'll start listing a bunch of things. I would say the biggest factor has to do with the nurnber of artists in this community. You know, we're--a lot of the arts groups [unintelligible] a statistic that is very true, which is there's more arts groups per capita in Rhode Island than in any other state. Now it's a small state. But, there is truth behind this statistic. And, that to me, I think has a really interesting, has a lot of weight into why I'm here and why I stayed here.

[TAPE ENDS]

Lerman: It's affordable. There's a lot of loft space, there's a lot of old mill buildings. There's a lot of visual artists who can afford to not only live here, but afford to have studio space. It's close to Boston and New York. So, I think a lot of artists discovered that, and come here for that. RISD's huge. Rhode Island School of Design brought in tons of visual artists, and a lot of people stayed. And so, and you know maybe it doesn't take that many in a state this small to have a big impact, but basically a lot stayed for all the reasons I just said, so all of a sudden you have a lot of artists who are based here. Um, now these aren't theatre artists, these are just artists. But for me, given that my art is all about collaboration with all these different types of artists, that is a huge factor for me. Because I like working with-all the theatre I do is very visual. So, having access to all these-visual artists-not necessarily trained set designers, but visual artists, has been really exciting for me. So I think that's-again that's just for why I'm here and why Perishable's doing the kind of work it's doing, because of my interests in the tools that are around me in this community. It's not the same answer you get from other artistic directors because none of their theatres have as much weight on the visual as I do. But it's certainly a reason why I'm here.

Miller: Uh huh.

Lerman: And, probably first and foremost-I mean again, the kind of theatre I do is all about all the fonns of collaborating. I mean for me, the actor's as important as the designer, as the lighting designer, as the sound designer, and as the playwright. Doesn't mean anyone of those is necessarily more important, or lesser. So, I want these lighting designers working hand in hand with the actor. Um, I'm a realist and know that when all's said and done, the perfonnance of the actor's gonna carry a lot more weight to-in the audience's perception of the work, umm, but my goal is that if we do the job right, the design is having as much of an impact, maybe even on the actor's work. I think a good designer can impact an actor in his or her ability to perfonn. It can take it to a different place. So, umm, that's a big factor forme about Providence. You know, I have a family here now, the tightness of the community's important, because the size has a lot to do with kind ofI think what makes it-these are more kind of maybe generic answers now to why do theatre, or why do art in Providence. Again, it's affordable, umm, there's uhthere's a close community. Um, and, for me the fact that I'm close to Boston and New York means I can access theatre, which I can't get here, umm, so that's important. I can drop down to New York and see what I need to see to be inspired. And that's a big part. I should also say in my whole little life history, I spent every summer of my life on Cape Cod.

Miller: Really? Where on Cape Cod?

Lerman: Mashpee.

Miller: My father lives in Wellfleet.

Lerman: Oh okay. Sure. So, that was the one constant I had growing up. Moving all around, my parents had a little cottage on a pond in Mashpee. So, no matter where I was, we always went to the Cape. And so, I really didn't know Providence though growing up at all. We'd just drive by, you know, drive through it, and it looked like a durnp, and everyone says it was a durnp way back then, and I never had anything to do with the city until then, but, so that's a little piece too that's influenced why Providence is a great place for me.

Miller: Mm hmm-because you felt rooted in

Lerman: I felt rooted in New England at least, you know, so ifI had roots anywhere, I called it in New England.

Miller: Yeah, huh. Why did your parents move around so much?

Lerman: Uh, not any one particular reason. My father was Canadian, and so that was why Montreal. And my mother grew up in Atlanta, so when we got fed up with the snow [Miller laughs], and they did, you know after several years

Miller: Understandably [Lennan laughs].

Lerman: We had tons ofrelatives in Atlanta, and my father got a chance to get work down there. So you know, he always-he was an optomologist but he uh, veered into research. He actually stopped seeing patients, and got more into just doing research. So he always worked through a university. So he was with McGill, and then he had an opportunity to move down to Emory in Atlanta, and my mother had family there, so it was like, okay, fed up with snow, let's move down there, umm, also Montreal was getting funky then, there was a lot of bombings going on. [ML's cell phone rings] Hold on one sec. This is my phone, hold on [tape turns off].

Miller: So we were talking about moving around a lot, your dad was doing research...

Lerman: Oh right, I was telling you-so, besides snow, I don't if-FLQ-I can't remember what they stood for, [unintelligible] I was a kid, but there was a separatists movement going on in Montreal, were basically making you know, a French speaking city, and they wanted the English out, and so I was you know, interesting, it's coming back to me now because I was living in a community where if you saw as a kid, walking to school, if I saw a brown paper bag, you crossed the street, you stayed away from it, you never touched it, you called the police about it, it was just part of my experience of growing up in Montreal. And, you know, I remember clearly that there were brown paper bags would show up in our driveway and you'd call the police because you were supposed to, and they'd send the whole bomb squad

Miller: In case it was a bomb?

Lerman: Yeah. And everyone took it very seriously. I mean, there were, it was happyou know, so, given that, movement, uh, that was-I think my parents said, you know, given that, given the fact that a lot of people in the city didn't want-wanted Englishspeaking people out, so you know it wasn't always pleasant being an English-speaking family. And, given we had, you know, family in Atlanta, it was like, ok, let's just go. So we went down to Atlanta. And that's where I stayed til I graduated high school. However, my parents, and mainly me, beautiful city, hated Atlanta. Cause it's-well then it was culturally pretty void. It's changed a lot since then. When I was there there were maybe five theatres. Now there's fifty. So, I would probably have a very different experience growing up now, but, uh, we were there, but we basically everyone was just biding their time to get out, my sister, you know, she graduated, she headed up north to the northeast, when I graduated I headed up north to Philadephia, and once I went to undergrad, my parents sold the house in Atlanta and retired in New York.

Miller: In New York City?

Lerman: Yeah in the village.

Miller: Much more of an arts scene there.

Lerman: Right, and given what they wanted to do, which was go to galleries and museurns, and go to theatre, Atlanta was not the place for them anymore. So they just said okay, kids were-actually once I got out of college, so they put the kids through college, we're done, kids are on their own [laughs], sell the house, we're going to retire into the Village. So they did!

Miller: Sounds good.

Lerman: Yeah.

Miller: Was it just you and your sister?

Lerman: Um, yeah. Just the two of us.

Miller: Uh huh. And is she in the arts too?

Lerman: Uh, well, she started in the arts. Umm, she was a painter. In fact, she was in the arts before I was ever in the arts, but she reached the point where she decided that she didn't want to make her livelihood as a painter. And so she also spent a lot oftime collecting degrees. She was painting and collecting degrees. She went uh, she thrived in academia, and so she got, I don't know, when all's said and done I thought she had at least three masters. You know she had an MFA, and she-I don't know if she got her masters in Comp Lit, and, uh, maybe another masters in-oh there was at least three. I don't even know. And then she ultimately then went to grad-to law school. And she was then simultaneously pursuing getting a PhD in jurisprudence, umm, and you know, pursuing law school as well as pursuing the graduate theological seminary. So she was gonna do all that, which was all in Berkeley, and uh, she then hit a point where she reached burn out. She realized that, I mean she loved writing papers obviously [laughs], she did a LOT of that, she reached kind of this critical ma-point oflike, 'I can't keep doing all this academia, and I have to pick one.' And so, she went into law-she picked law but she picked...so when all's said and done now, you know, she had, she went to law school, and she does appeals work. And appeals work, if you know anything about law, is about as academic as you can get. Cause it's all about, umm, a little courtroom stuff, but a lot of it is all about researching and writing your brief. It's all about crafting your brief. And so she does, she's sort of a, she's supposed to get here on Friday, she becomes a partner in a big fmn in LA, and does big federal appeals work. You know, and it's really very heavy intellectual, sit down and just write write write write, and create the perfect brief to win the case.

Miller: Wow. Does she still paint?

Lerman: Uh no. She's tried off and on. And she just, she's a great painter actually. I have some of her paintings. But she just couldn't do it, she reached that point where it was almost like, she didn't enjoy it. And partly she even said, because of grad school. Grad school can do this to you. Grad school almost kept me from being a theatre artist. And kept her from being a painter, ultimately. Because she said you know I go to paint, she just hears all the criticism that was thrust at her. So she can't free herself from that, and paint. Similarly, it's kind of what I said early on, I said that ifuh, if you don't, if you can't establish yourself enough as an undergraduate like what your work is, and you go to an environment where you just start getting loads of criticism, in not constructive wayscriticism is fine. But you have constructive criticism and damaging criticism. And unfortunately there's a lot of teachers out there who are good at the damaging criticism and not the constructive criticism.

Miller: Was that your experience at UCSD?

Lerman: Yeah. Mainly. Or, mainly that and mainly the-there was no one running-it was just like a mess. There basically-you know there were two directors picked every year, so it was kind of like I was one of two. And I was given all the money in the world, it was like the polar opposite of Trinity Rep Conservatory. At the Conservatory, you have no money. You know they have no theatre facilities, if you do a production, it's out of pocket, a hundred dollars, what can you do. They-they have a black box, you're on your own. UCSD, you have full graduate resources, you can get access to the La Jolla playhouse, umm, you have whole departments to build your costumes, to build your sets, paid staff, I mean, and uh, so it was kind of great, you know, all this money but what they didn't have at UCSD was, the person running the graduate directing program was hardly even around. So like, I was young, I was 21, and I wanted someone to kind of, to work with. At that point I was like okay, I've been free-floating for a while, I want some feedback. And I want some.. .or someone to, you know, just have a conversation with. And I was getting-I was just kind ofleft to float. And, at that point, at that age, that's not what I needed. So between that, and what little I was getting from some-you know, some of the teachers were great there. I learned a lot-that's, [unintelligible] my one bad experience was from a teacher who like, you know, made me almost wonder ifI should stop directing.

Miller: [unintelligible]

Lerman: Yeah you know it was criticism basically, and it wasn't helpful criticism-that's the problem. It was criticism that was just making me, it was like, you know, making me stop, not to address the problem I was having in the play, but just was making me focus on whether I should be a director. And it was kind of like, it wasn't focused on, OK, what needs, you know this isn't working, what can I do to make this whole play work. And, and instead of helping me with that, they were just kind of saying you shouldn't be directing [laughs]. You know, so, that's exactly the kind of thing that I think, you gotta be careful of in any graduate program, probably in any program. You just gotta watch out for people who, umm, that's true for any field, you know. I'm sure there are doctors out there who have had people tell them, you know people who got to med school have similar professors who give them one kind of feedback or another kind of feedback. So, whatever you're doing, that's going to be out there.

Miller: So where did you find your mentors?

Lerman: Uh two, specifically, mainly two mentors. One was David Eliet, who I mentioned, ran the conservatory. I had mends who were going to the conservatory, so I was at my graduate program in San Diego and my good mends were over at the conservatory, and they were like, loving it, and I was hating it [laughs], and so what I did was I did a trial program. I went thesununer between my first and second year at grad school in San Diego, I spent a sununer here at the Trinity Rep Sununer Program. They don't have it anymore, they had a summer program. And I got to at least meet David Eliet, and I liked the program. Then I went back to grad school, umm, did my big secondyear thesis project, cause it's a two-year program, got tons of money, did this big production. It was fme, got well reviewed, it was like just a painful production for everyone' cause it was hard-it was like a really hard play. And again, all the things I was talking about and I was like, ugh, I don't want to do this anymore. I liked that program, I was miserable, had a good time, came back being miserable, I was like okay [laughs]. I hate San Diego, I like the East Coast, kinda like [laughing], I think it's like pretty basic decision-making now. So I was just like I did my production, I called up, they said sure you can transfer, and I did.

Miller: And you had gotten in already, back when you applied.

Lerman: Right, I had gotten in already. They never had anyone transfer before

Miller: Really?

Lerman: But because they had met me in the summer, I think that was-and I think, I didn't plan it, I think somewhere in the back of my mind I kinda knew, that's why I went there this summer, looking for a way out. And so since they knew me, they said come on in, so I came in, you know I fmished that, that year, that fall semester in December, packed up my car, drove back cross-country, drove in here on January the 2nd of '88, crashed with my mend til I found an apartment, and went right to school [unintelligible]. So, that's one mentor, David Eliet. The other, is a whole piece of my theatre training I forgot all about, which is critical, [laughs]

Miller: [laughing] Yes?

Lerman: A guy named David Ultz. Who's an English director, set and costume designer. He's amazing. By pure luck I did one ofthose, you know junior year abroad programs that schools have, but mine was the fall semester. So fall semester junior year, I went to London, and the program-exchange program placed you, by pure chance with the theatre in London. And the theatre was called Theatre Royal Stratford East, and the director who happened to be there while I was there, and I was just given to him, you know, like to be his assistant, was David Ultz, and he was doing Peracles, by Shakespeare. And he and I became very good mends, and he became, my mentor, for years. Obviously David Eliet then came later, but David Ultz, and yet he to this day is probably one of the best directors and designers I've ever seen in the world. And he's since gone on, in Europe, he's done, basically he does anything and everything. I mean, you know there's a lot of-there's not a lot of necessarily crossover between America and Europe. Um, he's done a few shows on Broadway, as a designer here, he worked for years with the Royal Shakespeare Company, but now his big thing is he does a lot of opera. And so, when you're in that kind oflevel of doing opera, you're doing it in Gennany and Japan, and he just basically, that's what he does. So he directs, and usually designs anything he directs, and again, similar but different from me. I don't have the chops to design anything I want to direct, but I like being part of the process obviously. I mean he has the ability to set the costume design, umm, uh, and that's where he got known, actually, he got, he just went by Ultz, in Europe he's just

Miller: Is that U-l-t-z?

Lerman: Yeah, and that's a very conscious marketing ploy on his part too. It's [unintelligible] person. He just said, you know, I'm just Ultz. And the press picked up on it and they're like, who is this Ultz, what is an Ultz?! I mean the press went kind of berserk, and, 'cause he'd do these beautiful, kind of exquisite productions, pretty out there. And so the press would come, and it would just say, staged or designed by Ultz. And you would never get any other infonnation, so it was kinda like, you know, Prince. It was kind oflike this whole like, tapped into that thinking before Prince did. Um, so Ultz. So Ultz was a big mentor of mine and he's doing his thing over there in Europe.

Miller: Do you feel like that's kind of where you got your emphasis on the visual?

Lerman: That's-I mean that's a big piece of it, the fact that also, my family, you know there's a history of vis-my sister's a painter, and my parents have a huge art collection. So, we would always-my parents you know were theatre-goers, but primarily museum and gallery goers. So I probably was exposed to tons of visual art. All, you know whenever we traveled, we traveled a lot as kids because my father was doing research, did a lot of consulting for companies, so they'd take us-back then they'd take the family and all go with him, my parents would take us. And so I just as a kid, was dragged around from museurn to museurn, from gallery to gallery all over. And so I was exposed to a lot of visual art. And so I think, that has a lot to do with it.

Miller: So why theatre?

Lerman: Why theatre? Yeah, well you know, that's uh...mmm...why theatre. Why not pre-veterinary medicine? I know, that's just-well you know there's something to that because think about it, I was interested in pre-veterinary medicine, or marine biology. Nothing to do with people [laughs]. All about animals and fish. And, uh [laughing], and I end up with something that's all about people, and looking at human nature.

Miller: Yeah.

Lerman: So, I have thought much about this very, very question. And, obviously, I love nature. I talked about the outdoor club, I became a SCUBA diver, haven't done it in years, uh, you know, when I go up, love spending every summer way up the North Coast in Maine, and you know, I just love being out in the far, as much as I love urban environments and art, I equally love as much being as far away as possible from urban envirournents and art, being out in nature, in the country, and going to the water, SCUBA diving, or whatever it is, on equal par. And so certainly you know when things are going bad at the theatre, I go, oh, maybe I should go become, join the seal patrol in Maine. You know not Navy SEALS, but they have these gnys whose job it is to drive around and just, check in on the seals [laughs]. So I'm like, whenever I have a bad day, I go, maybe I'll join the seal patrol [both laugh]. Maybe it's time. So, when I think about all that and I get back to this question of, why theatre, I guess, the why I like to do the kind of theatre I like to do, which is dealing with, you know, either new plays, or even more, work that I create, it's probably because it's dealing with issues of humanity that trouble me. Or, I feel like someone needs to say something about. And so, the same issues that make me want to run away from it, or deal with it. And you know, I think I was, as I kid I was very much more about running away from it. Stay underwater [laughs], you know I saw veterinary medicine as like a chance to just like, deal with animals. Marine biology as a chance to just, you know, and not have to deal with issues about humanity that bothered me. But, then I saw the other side of it, which was, or there's a way to maybe, deal with some of these issues about human nature, and society that bother me. And I went in that direction. SO, so again I have kind of realized that there is a connection there as to why I was going from one kind of thing to another. And I believe that's what theatre should be doing. And that's why, I think there's a place for all theatre, but I think theatre-I'm a big proponent of smaller theatres, I think the future of American theatre is all about small, intimate theatre companies. Because they're the ones doing the kind of work that gets talked about. They're the ones asking the hard questions, so it's not about entertainment. It doesn't mean it can't be entertaining-of course it can be entertaining. But it's not about mass entertainment. Um, and so I'm a big advocate proponent for smaller companies. Especially for new work, because new work is-if you're doing new work you're dealing with stuff that's dealing with what's happening now. Again, you can take a piece of Shakespeare and find how it relates to today. You can, you know, fmd the message that's the universal message that's still there for your day. Very truthful-that's great, and I think that should always be a part of what's happening. But you can only keep theatre alive by having new writers and new voices and people actively addressing what's happening right now during our lives. And people need to do that work, and it doesn't get done v~ry much in bigger institutions. They can't afford to. It's really hard to market new work. I know, I'm doing it. It's really hard to sell tickets to new work, 'cause, you know, people want safe choices. And they don't know what it is-it's new. You know, a play by, uh, anything I've done, you know, in the last year, you know, names don't necessarily mean a lot. It's not by Arthur Miller, it's not by William Shakespeare, it's not by O'Neill. You know, but who are these three woman playwrights that we're producing right now? No one's heard of them. Who's this guy I'm doing next spring? Jordan Harrison-no one's heard of him .

Miller: So how can the smaller theatres afford to do it ifthe bigger theatres can't?

Lerman: Economics: number of seats you have, nurnber of seats you gotta fill. Um, I'm trying to fill 75 seats a night, Trinity has two theatres that together are trying to fill 900 or 1000 seats a night. So, they-doesn't mean it can't be done. There are some-there are exceptions to every rule. There's some amazing large institutions in this country, a few of them, that develop new, interesting, dynamic work. But if they've gotten there over years and years and umm, Trinity does one new playa year now, you know, out of a year. It's more than other big regional theatres, less than others, you know. It's kind of umm, and I know they always have the hardest-I know they budget that it will sell the least. Because it's a new play. It has no track record.

Miller: So that brings me to my question of what the role of the Perishable is in Rhode Island, and in this community, and what the relationship between Perishable and Trinity is, and what... what role do you guys play?

Lerman: Uh, wow, a big role-I mean a couple different factors [sighs]. I would even say in a broader sense, in the, we've had a huge role in revitalizing downtown Providence. Put aside theatre, for a second. Perishable and AS220 in '93 came into these buildings you're in now. In '93 this street was a disaster area. I mean, these two buildings were pretty much empty. Maybe one porn shop, they had a couple pay phones on this street. And it was the strip for all the drug trafficking, and for male and female prostitution. Um, and on the corner, across from Trinity, was one of the seediest clubs, in the entire city. So, you didn't walk down this street, especially at night, you would walk, I mean it was just a-this was only ten years ago. We came, we bought, together we did a campaign, we moved into these facilities. We, we used sweat equity, I mean we just came in there with, you know, not a lot of money, and just fixed everything up, and we opened our doors in '93. And as a result-we opened, they opened those doors, we still had to [unintelligible] all the drug trafficking and all the prostitution happening. But slowly, they realized that other stuff was happening, and they all moved. And partly it was us being aggressive, and partly it was them just going, 'W oah I don't want all this visibility, you know, for my...' So we, we had a-we cleaned up this street. And as a result, we're a huge part of the revitalization of downtown Providence. So that's, that's kind of a role we play that, you know, we didn't plan on, it just, like, that just happened. Within the theatre community, ah, a couple of different things too, I mean, you know, we are committed to developing new work. We're the people that do that. So that's our role. And it's not just that, you know, we're known for-we're getting known for that nationally, not just in Rhode Island. But clearly, in tenns of your question about this community, that's what we do. We're also-you know we're doing the kinda work that no one else is doing in this community. I mean, we're doing work that has as much emphasis on the visual as on the text. I always talk about fonn and content-they go hand in hand. And for me they're-they're equally important. And, no one, no else is doing that. I actually, personally think that there's too much of a similarity between what the other smaller theatre companies are doing and Trinity are doing. I'm surprised at how similar their seasons are. For the most part. You know, uh, Sandra Feinstein-Ganun is doing, just did "The Crucible." "Crucible" has been done in big regional theatres allover the country. They do a Shakespeare a year, two or three a year. I mean they, I kinda feel like, and again, I think if you're a smaller theatre, then you can be more daring. You have the freedom. Uh, so that's just my-that's what I want. You know, I'm-I know the counters, that there's not enough opportunity, so people have fonned other companies, , cause they want to do "Crucible" and Shakespeare, and Trinity only has so many jobs, and there's only so many opportunities, so I'm sure that's why, you know, peoplewhich is great, I'm ultimately a proponent of more theatre. ~e more theatre the better. ~ Theatre breeds theatre. So, I'm not against them, I'm just surprised at how similar their seasons are.

Miller: Do you feel like it's a difference in mission?

Lerman: Yeah. It's just a very different mission. And so, I kind of, you know, we'vesome people at the State Arts Council have described this as one of the most missiondriven arts organizations in the community. And I think that's true. We're really-you know, that makes other things hard, it means ticket sales can be hard. Or fundraising maybe sometimes can be hard.

[Tape ends]

Lerman:.. .Cash cows, we're not-it doesn't mean we can't be smart and business savvy, we try to be, but I put mission first and business savvy right behind it. Cause I wanna keep my doors open, I don't want to shut down. You can be, you know, you can't be blind-you can't have blinders on about your mission, but you gotta do the mission, and then be smart about how you keep the business going to support the mission. You can have the best mission in the world but if you shut your doors it doesn't matter. So, umm

Miller: Do you think it's possible? That balance between

Lerman: I've been doing it for thirteen and a half years. It's possible. It's not easy. And I know other companies around the country who have also done it. We are the minority, cause it's the hardest. I think it's, you know, clearly the hardest thing to do. But you know the Worcester Group is still around, Mabu Mines is still around, and uh, and then there are others, there are world famous-there are many companies like Perishable who aren't world famous, who just have been doing it, trucking along, for ten, fifteen, twenty years, doing their thing. It's not easy. That's you know, why you spend so much of your time running the business or fundraising. Because it's not easy. But it is possible.

Miller: We've been talking a lot about "avant-garde" in the class I'm taking. Do you think-what do you think of that? Do you think there is an avant-garde arts community here?

Lerman: Oh sure. Here?

Miller: Do you consider yourself part of it?

Lerman: I'm part of it, you know, of course I'm part of it. And then there's other people who...uh, I'm definitely part of it. Having said that, a lot of Perishable's history has been supporting perfonnance artists. And that-you know, what makes us unique to this community is a whole nother thing we didn't talk about, which is we've been really supportive of other artists. Like if they need a space, we give it to them. We have to make it work financially. But we do. So I've developed a lot oflocal perfonnance artists. And, we are that-I mean from, we are the voice for a good part of the more avant-garde theatre community. It doesn't mean there always won't be other people. I hope there will be other people coming along. You know, I'm turning forty in a week, and I would hope there'll be other young people coming along calling, you know, challenging me as in my status as an avant-garde artist. That's what they should be doing. Um, and hopefully I can hold my own, but hopefully they'll prove me wrong, too. And hopefully they'll come along and kind of do something that will kind of floor me. And go, oh, I never thought of that. So I hope other people will come along, but for now I'm very much part of the avant-garde community. Doesn't mean everything we do is, but a lot of what we do is. You know, whether we call it not-unlin-you know there's no linear narrative, whether it's very imagistic work. Last year's season had a couple of pieces in it that were very much part of-we started the year with "My Baby" by Eric Inn. Eric Inn is kind of really at the forefront I think of the avant-garde writing community. Um, very imagistic, very dense, piece of theater, that, was probably one of the hardest things for my audiences to follow. And yet rooted in a very local story. Which is kind of why I liked it. It was all about the immigrant experience in Providence. My piece "The Long Journey to Whereto" certainly touched upon---certainly I think was more in the avant-garde frame--certainly the way it was built. Um, uh, this December we're having-we're previewing a piece here that's going to St. Anne's in New York, called "Accidental Nostalgia," by Cynthia Hopkins, who's kind of an up and coming mnge artist in New York who's part of the band "Gloria Deluxe," and, it's a perfonnance art piece that a set designer from the Worcester Group's working on, so it's still very much-yeah so that is a role we play here. There's definitely some other stuff happening-you know there's some mnge art groups in Olneyville, and doing a lot more perfonnance art, and absolutely-that's the way it should be. And I'm wait-you know I'm interested to see where all their-what's happening with them and where they're going.

Miller: There are a couple small theatres in Olneyville, right?

Lerman: Um, really kind of-well, I know there's a lot of arts collectives in Olneyville, I don't know if there's a theatre company per se yet. I just know that there's artists, and they might do theatre sometimes, they might do perfonnance art. To my knowledge I don't know if there's a fully identified theatre company in Olneyville.

Miller: So do you think the future of avant-garde art and theatre might be in Olneyville and Pawtucket, and kind of moving out of what's becoming gentrified Providence?

Lerman: No-hopefully not. I mean that's a problem-that's always a problem. As you gentrify. But, that's partly why we've worked to secure our home here. I mean, my hope is Perishable, even past me will always be here. I mean we pretty much work with AS220 that our future is secure, we're looking to expand our facility. So I feel like our future is secure here, and I just hope that the mission always is there to support that kind of avantgarde work. And, so I think that's why, you know, in some ways, like you pointed out, because of gentrification, the only place for it in downtown Providence might be Perishable. But there's-you know, I won't be here forever, and I want my successor to certainly carry on the kind of mission that would support avant-garde work. And as long as we have-we own our space with AS220, we don't have to worry about being kicked out, we can afford to do that. Any new company probably couldn't afford to come into downtown Providence. So, I hadn't thought about that, but, you're right. Perishable's probably it for downtown Providence because of money. So, hopefully, others will sprout up around, but Perishable will hopefully always be here too.