Interviewer: Rachel Judge

Interviewee: Paul Iannelli

Category: Industry

Genre: Steelworker

Length in Time: 01:00:49

00:00: 15

RJ: Where were you born?

00:00:16

PI: I was born right around the comer here on Harold Street in Providence, Rhode Island. . . about five minutes from here.

00:00:23

RJ: Was this at home, or . . .

00:00:25

PI: Yeah. Or no, in a hospital, in, uh, I guess it was Lyon Inn Hospital at the time. . . that used to be over here. Now it's moved.

00:00:35

RJ. So, talk about your parents a little. What did they do?

00:00:40

PI: My father worked right over in this building right here. It was Builder's Iron Foundry. He worked there. My mother, in her earlier years, was a showgirl in New York. She used to dance in the shows and all that. Until, like I say, I was born here on Harold Street. My grandfather worked right here across the street, with my two uncles who worked right here across the street . . . which was Builder's Iron Foundry at that time. My other uncles worked right behind us here . . . that was U.S. Rubber.

00:01:29

RJ: When did your mother move to Providence? Was she not from Providence originally?

00:01:38

PI: My mother was, I believe, always in Providence. She was born, uh, pretty much at the top of the hill over here, right off Chalkstone Avenue on Lisbon Street.

00:01:50

RJ: So both your parents are . . .

00:01:51

PI: Right. And my father was born here up on Federal Hill. He was an Italian and my mother was Polish and Italian.

00:02:02

RJ: Okay. So most of your adult family, on the male side at least, worked at the steel yard?

00:02:08

PI: Well, at the time, yeah. It was B.I.F. (Builder's Iron Foundry], and then, uh, my other uncles worked over there which was U.S. Rubber at the time. All those buildings behind us there, that was all U.S. Rubber. They used to make golf balls and . . . they used to make these hot water bottles. I don't know if you know what I'm talking about. And they used to, you know, put them in your bed and everything at night. They used to make them. And my father was the crane operator over here and they used to make . . . they was a foundry. They used to make castings and stuff. He was the crane operator, up on the ceiling, as a matter of fact, on the big crane.

00:02:40

RJ: So did you ever come in and hang out as a kid?

00:02:43

PI: Uh, when I was smaller we used to come down here. They used to have outings-Christmas parties for the employees and everything. This was a long time ago. And, like I said, it was a nice company to work for. And then they sold out to this New England Air Brakes and they moved down into West Warwick. They started making meters and valves and stuff; and they got away from this.

00:03:09

RJ: So when they sold out did your father continue. . .

00:03:10

PI: Uh. . . my father had passed away by then. Matter of fact, that company there. . . during the World War II, my father didn't have to go to war because he was classified as, uh, doing work for the government. They were making, uh, machine gun shells and all stuff for the government so he got a deferment because of the work he was doing.

00:03:37

RJ: Okay. So . . . do you have any siblings?

00:03:41

PI: No.

00:03:42

RJ: You were the only. . .

00:03:43

PI: The only child. And like I said, my mother worked, uh . . . I can't remember, you know, before I was born, but I know she was in the shows and all that in New York and Radio City and all that.

00:03:54

RJ: What kind of. . . was she. . .

00:03:55

PI: Dancer. And my father, he used to have a small band and he used to play at all the night cluhs and small cafes around here and weddings and everything.

00:04:05

RJ: So did you go to his performances or mostly. . .

00:04:08

PI: I can remember when I was up in a couple of the cafes up here on Chalkstone Avenue. I can remember going to them, you know, and seeing him play. It was like, he was a guitar player and they had an accordion and a bass and . . . if I remember. . . the piano, I believe, but I'm not sure now.

00:04:26

RJ: Are any of the places that he played still . . .

00:04:30

PI: Well, they're here. There's one right up on Chalkstone Ave. . . . it's a sport's bar now. It used to be D'Aurio's years and years ago, right near Roger Williams Hospital.

00:04:40

RJ: Where did you go to school?

00:04:42

PI: I went to the school up top of the hill. I went to [Boss Sarkman] to the eighth grade, and then I went to George J. West . . . no, I went to [Sarkman] I think to the seventh grade or eighth grade . . . uh, seventh grade. And then I went for eighth and ninth to George West and then I went to Mount Pleasant High School for about a year and then I quit.

00:05:03

RJ: That was what, like the tenth grade?

00:05:07

PI: Tenth grade, yeah. Ten, eleven, twelve. . . right.

00:05:11

RJ: Why did you quit?

00:05:13

PI: Well, I had to get a job. You know. I used to shine shoes on the weekends. I would carry the shoebox around to all the cluh and bars. You know, that was when I was like 10, 12. I had a paper route. . . all in back down the Parkway and everything.

00:05:38

RJ: So did you start working at the yard here?

00:05:41

PI: Oh no. I, uh, I went from there and then I got a job down in the city. And it was new J.J. Newberry's right on Westminster Street. There was Newberry's, the outlet, uh. . . the other department store. . . Kresge's department store. And I worked there for about, I guess, 4 or 5 years and then at about 20 or 21 I I went in the army and . . . well, I went in the National Guards. . . and then I come out of the army . . . out of the National Guard . . . . after about 6 or 8 months. And then, uh, I get a job with a fence company for about 6 or 8 months, Security Fence. And then I came here- but it was Providence Steel. And I worked here for forty years. . . until Clay and them bought this place, which was over a year now.

00:06:32

RJ: So was Providence Steel still an active company?

00:06:34

PI: No, they closed down. It was owned by these two families in the beginning, and then the [Curvic] family and the Hatfenretfer family bought it over. And then, uh, in 1980, this guy Bill King bought it. And he had it until we closed down . . . it'll be two years in May. Then I was gonna take my retirement, 'cause I was in a Teamster Union. . . 'cause I used to take care of all the cranes, and trailers, and drive the trucks and all that. And I than I uh . . . and then Clay and them approached me to stay on. So now. . . I'm working with the artists.

00:07:20

RJ: (Laughs)

00:07:22

PI: And it's an experience. I've had . . . I mean, the nicest bunch of guys. I mean, you know, I got my retirement, so I coulda' gone anywhere. But they've been great.

00:07:30

RJ: Do you still live right around the comer?

00:07:32

PI: Uh, no. I live in Johnston now. I moved there about 2 years ago . . . well, yeah, I lived in Providence all my life up until. . . well, 59 years? I'm 62 today, so, I lived in Providence 59 years. And, uh, like I said, I stayed in the Guards for 35 years. National Guards. And uh . . .

00:07:59

RJ: Where did you serve when you were in the army?

00:08:01

PI: Oh . . . I, uh, I just went on for like the 6 months, like when you initially join the Guard. . . but then after, when I stayed in the Guard, I've been in Germany, I've been in Portugal. I've been, uh, my unit was an artillery unit. Matter of fact, all my guys. . . I, uh . . . then, while I was in there I got a G.E.D., that brought me up to the twelfth grade. Then I went to the United States Army Sergeant Major's Academy, which is 2 years' correspondence.

00:08:31

RJ: Where is that?

00:08:32

PI: Fort Bliss, Texas.

00:08:34

RJ: Okay. And you were there for 2 years?

00:08:35

PI: No no. I did 2 years at home, and then you go there for 2 months. You know, they finish up the last . . . all your essays and all that stuff you do there. So that took me, I think, up to almost 1 or 2 points from an associate's degree. So, um, like 1 said, I retired from the Guards in 1999. Then I did about two and a ha1f years in the reserves. . . I didn't get paid, I'd just go give classes and they'd give me points towards retirement. Because you can't retire from the guards until you turn 60. That's mandatory. So I had 35 years, and I had about 2 more years, 3 more years, to go and I stayed in the reserves ... so, like I said, I go in on Wednesday night, I give classes. . . 1 or 2 classes, and then I go home.

00:09:28

RJ: What classes do you teach?

00:09:30

PI: Well, I give weapons classes and, uh . . . mostly military classes. Um, you know, deployments, uh, basic structures of units. Since I was a Command Sergeant Major when I retired. You know, so.

00:09:48

RJ: Um, back just a little bit to the 'youth' part of things. Were you. . . had you ever really intended to go to college or . . . what was your intention?

00:10:10

PI: Well, at that time, you know. . . you're going back, uh, 60 years. . . even, say, 50 years. I mean, it was, 'go to work.' You know, my mother and father, they weren't rich people who lived in [Tree] Tenement House. At that time, college was the farthest thing from my mind. What made me start doing stuff was when I got into the Guards that I couldn't further myself. . . in the Guards. . . without education. You know, as you move up in rank, you have to move up in education.

00:10:44

RJ: So how old were you when you got your G.E.D.?

00:10:48

PI: I was probably 23,24. And then the academy I went to in '85. When I went to the Sergeant Major's academy.

00:10:59

RJ: Did you specialize in anything in this academy, or is it like a. . .

00:11:01

PI: This was mostly, uh, how to handle men. How to make reports. How to do afteraction reviews. . . counseling. . . you know, a Sergeant Major. . . what he mostly does is take care of his soldiers and the soldiers' problems. You know, if a guy is having problems with his wife or his kids or, you know, anything. . . he's not making the drills. Well, they were all given to me. I was like the number two man. the Colonel was the commander and I was the number two man.

00:11:34

RJ: You said earlier that you served abroad in Germany and in . . .

00:11:39

PI: I did. Well these are like 3 months, I mean, 3 weeks. . . 4 weeks. 1 was in Germany 3 times. . . uh, I was in Portugal, and I probably been in three quarters of the United States. 'Cause as I moved up in rank . . . even though the units are in Rhode Island, they have command of a lot of other units. In fact, the unit I was in, all those guys are in Iraq right now. .

00:12:08

RJ: You. . . these were just sort of standard, uh, services abroad. . . or were you. . .

00:12:14

PI: They were what they call. . . um, somewhere to learn . . . at the time that I went to Germany, a couple of the times were to learn the country, because that was where they went before they tore the wall down. Before the Cold War went away. You know, we learned the terrain . . . uh . . . if Russia did attack, we would go . . . where all the ammunition was stored. They'd give you the plan of the . . . you know, if this was going back 20 years I couldn't be telling you this. Okay? But, uh, you know, I've stood on one side and looked across and seen the Russian border guards on the other side. . . of the . . . I was at the line. I was at the wall, but I just went by. I never stopped.

00:13:04

RJ: So this was in anticipation of war, basically.

00:13:06

PI: Well, yeah. That's what we were trained for, was to go to Germany in case of a war. You know, so they wanted you to know the country, the customs, you know, the food. . . all that stuff.

00:13:20

RJ: And you learned this by just being there?

00:13:23

PI: Yeah, just being there. Riding from town to town. . . meeting with the people. Riding with some of the units that were stationed there. And then another time I went it was a big exercise. . . I mean like, we helped with the exercise. And the last time I went was to visit units that belonged to us. There was like, 2 or 3 of us that went over and visited them. . . in Germany. And it's funny to see the way the country has changed. You know, when I first went there, the American military was allover the place. And the second time I went, it was shifted. And the last time I went, everything is down south now. Away from Frankfurt and more down towards Lanstool and that Luxembourg end where they moved the military. They've taken all these places they called. . . they used to be German barracks. And then the Americans took them over so now they've given them back to the German people. And they've made them into police stations and all that stuff. Schools, libraries.

00:14:32

RJ: Why do you think, specifically, those changes have occurred?

00:14:38

PI: 'Cause of the war. There's no more. .. Russia's not a threat. . . in a sense. You know, and to keep all those people there. And I think it's, uh, money-wise, too. There's a lot of money there. I know the civilians didn't like us pulling out of there. 'Cause a lot of the civilians worked for the American government. You know, if you went into a place there. . . say a shop that repaired motors, three quarters were civilians. And they would all be unemployed. And, you know, all the soldiers pumping the money into the economy. It's just like when you hear a base is gonna close in the United States- the people are up in arms. Because, you know, not only do the guys spend money. . . you figure the food, the wood, the construction supplies. . . .everything's coming out of that town. It's devastating, you know. I was there when they were gonna close Newport years back. Gonna scale it down. People were. . . they got hurt quite a bit, you know. it took a while to get it back. But it's coming back now, Newport.

00:15:41

RJ: When was that? That they were going to close down Newport?

00:15:44

PI: Oh I'd say about. . . when they. . . maybe ten years ago. Maybe a little more. right around there. They wasn't gonna close it down, but they took all the big ships outta there, they scaled the whole thing down. You know, I've seen a town, what was it? North Carolina was it? That they closed the base down and God, everything just closed up because they depended so much on that economy. . . the base keeping that town together.

00:16:08

RJ: What were the effects in Newport?

00:16:10

PI: Well, the shops closed. . you know, all the places that supplied the base. A lot of that like, you know. . . like the city there. (Paul gestures out window toward downtown Providence) You know, the city was boomin'. When I worked there, let's see, maybe 40 years ago, that city was boomin'. And then, all the sudden, here comes the mill outlets. And then they just . . . killed the city. You know, people had to drive down to the city, pay to park. . . couldn't find a spot. They drove up to the mall, got out and walked in. And I seen the stores, you know, I worked in Newport and I could actually see that after a while the second floor got shortened. Things got brought down, and before, Newberry's, Kresge's, and the Outlet. all those department stores. . . gone.

00:17:03

RJ: When was that?

00:17:06

PI: Well, I would say . . . 40; 45 years ago maybe. You know, the first one that opened up was. . . I don't know if you're familiar with Olneyville down in here? Well, that old mill that's in the middle there, behind the market. Well, that was the first mill outlet. . . that and one in Pawtucket. . . to open up around here. And they actually drew the people right out, because everybody got out to these mill outlets. And that's when the malls came, and it just sucked the life out of the city. You know, there were so many big stores down there.

00:17:40

RJ: So you compared it to the, um, kind of, to the potential closing down of a base in Newport.

00:17:47

PI: Well, yeah, in a sense. You know, the pulling of the people out. You know, you got ships, you got 7, 8 hundred men on them. And they got their wives that shop. It's devastating, believe me.

00:17:59

RJ: So did people around here foresee that sort of change?

00:18:03

PI: Well, they seen that the base closing's coming along. And I guess mostly it's politics. And who's the strongest senator. You know, who's state can we put this in. You know, 'I want it because I'm head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff' or 'I'm head of the,' uh, you know, 'this committee, that committee.' So they got seniority and, you know, the jobs and all the sailors that were here had to go somewhere. So they took them down south or wherever they went.

00:18:35

RJ: So when there were the mill outlets opening in the Providence area, did people who lived here see that as being sort of an ominous thing, or was it . . .

00:18:46

PI: Oh, no, they were looking for the bargains. So they're gonna go with the best prices. And like I said, going down to the city, you had to find a place to park. And you had to pay to park. You go to the mall, you can park, it don't cost you. . . there's a space there, it don't cost you nothing to park. And to this day this city is hard to find a place to park.

00:19:06

RJ: So what did you. . . did you, at the time that Providence was starting to hit a depressed state economically. . . how did you see that manifesting itself at first?

00:19:23

PI: Well, I just seen the city, mostly, you know. I been seeing around these areas here. . . like I said, I've lived on all these streets right up above here. I lived on River Avenue, and the last house I lived in was on Regent Avenue, which is just up here, with my mother. And then I got married and I moved to right near Providence College. I moved over there, and then from there we bought a house. Do you know Providence College? You know when you go down to where the shopping plaza is, the Shaw's is? Well, I lived in back there for 25 years. On one of them side streets.

00:20:03

RJ: When did you get married?

00:20:05

PI: When?

00:20:06

RJ: Yeah.

00:20:07

PI: Um, well. . . the 29th of this month it'll be 38 years.

00:20:12

RJ: And you're still married?

00:20:14

PI: Yup. I think I am. I get home tonight I should be. Yup, I been married 38 years.

00:20:20

RJ: When and where did you meet your wife?

00:20:23

PI: Up on top of this street here is Tommy's Pizza. Tommy, my fiend Mike, and we were there before the. . . Tommy's father owned the pizza store and we used to hang down cellar and shoot pool. And his father said, 'I'm gonna make a pizza joint.' So he knocked the front out . . . he put a . . . as a part-time thing. It's still there. Still there. Matter of fact, they're gonna celebrate 50 years. They're coming up on it. So, like I said, I used to hang . . . I used to deliver pizza, make pizza and my wife came in and, you know, she lived on Smith Hill right up here where Foxy Lady is. Well, at the time, where you get onto the highway there it was all houses- and she lived in one of those houses right there. And uh, you know, I went with her for years. I betcha 4 or 5 years. . . 3 or 4 year maybe. And then, uh, we got married right up here on Atwell' s Avenue in a Polish Church. . . and, uh, we been together for 38 years. I got a son that's gonna by 32- he's still hanging around the house. But he can stay forever, you know, I don't. . . whatever he wants to do. I hardly ever see him anyway.

00:21:33

RJ: What does he do?

00:21:36

PI: He works for World's Foods, which supplies hummus. . . tabouli . . . he's like the. . . he's the depot manager. And then he goes out and handles customer complaints . . . and he sells the wraps- you know, that stuff there. I don't like it, but . . .

00:21:51

RJ: (Laughs)

00:21:53

PI: He brings it home, but. . . matter of fact, every once in a while he'll come by and give, you know. . . bring some wraps up, and hummus and tabouli, and I never found nothin' I like yet. I try it every once in a while. 'Here try this one here.' And I said, 'Okay, I'll try it now.'

00:22:07

RJ: (Laughs) So, is he your only son?

00:22:11

PI: Yes. Yes, one son.

00:22:13

RJ: And did he go to school right around here?

00:22:17

PI: He went to St. Pierre's School, which is on Eaton Street on the other side of Providence College, with the church there that stood behind it. Then he went to Our Lady of Providence, which was at the top of the hill, but they went out of. . . closed. And then he did two years at R.I.C.

00:22:35

RJ: Going back a little bit, you said that Tommy's Pizza Place is still going on now. . . this is sort of a general question and you can take it in whatever way you want, but I'd just like to, um, hear a little bit about how you've seen this neighborhood, specifically, change. Because, clearly there are some things that are just the same if we've still got. . .

00:22:58

PI: Well, you mean the last few years?

00:23:00

RJ: Um, yeah. I think the last few years, specifically, it's. . . there's so much talk about Providence having a 'resurgence' . . . or, but, also, just whatever. . .

00:23:13

PI: Well, I've seen a lot of the big companies pull outta here. I mean, last 20 years, you had Nicholson File which. . . you know, all these buildings, on the other side. . . you know where the Blood Center is? Well, in there was Nicholson File, and they used to be over here, too. Then you had, um, Imperial Knife, which made knives for the military. . . made all kinds of cutlery. . . all kinds. . . they were down in Olneyville. You know, all these companies here. . . moved out. Like I said, when my father was here, RI.F., this went all the way up the street, and on the other side where the courts are, all this was one company. Down there was Nicholson File, over there was Nicholson File. . . this buildings from. . . you know where Shaw's is over there? All along here, to that side street there, where the bridge is . . . the first bridge you come to . . . was all U.S. Rubber. You know, and then, it was all. . . on the other side of the street, that was U.S. Rubber. There was a Mule Battery, which you wouldn't remember, but somebody my age would remember Mule Battery was supposed to be the king of car batteries. You know, they used to make the best battery in the world. They said anyways. And like I said, where Shaw's is was all stores and markets, uh, across the street was stores and markets. . . everything is, uh, gone now. Well, see . . . these buildings are not fuel efficient. You know, nobody makes big buildings anymore. But it's fortunate that you know, guys like Clay're coming along. . . they took all these buildings here and are re-doing them. And Shaw's went in there, and that big complex.

00:24:57

RJ: Shaw's in Eagle Square? That used to be shops before?

00:25:02

PI: It was all buildings in there. It was all, uh . . . well, those buildings you see now have just been rehabbed. They only thing you see new now is, uh, well, the bottom part of Staples, but that building was there. On the other side, near [Umpa's], that was there. The little building in back. they were there. We used to . . . and I, like I said, I was born on . . . Harold Street's right over there, and my grandmother's house was right down on the corner of Harold and Valley Street. And she used to make Parodi cigars. You know what Italian Parodis are?

00:25:33

RJ: I don't.

00:25:34

PI: Okay. Well, they usually sell like that (paul gestures diameter of cigar), and they're very dark tobacco. And they're strong. Well, she used to make them this long. . . and I used to sit in a chair, because she used to babysit for me . . . I mean, she was an Italian lady, and she would take these big leaves of tobacco and roll them with water, make them tight. And her hands used to be always stained and everything. And then she'd take them about that high. . . that long, I'm sorry (paul indicates length of about 18 inches), and cut maybe four out, and she'd put them in this package. And she used to make cigars.

00:26:06

RJ: Is that what she did when. . . is that like a side thing, or . . .

00:26:10

PI: To be honest, I couldn't tell you. I was, like that. You know, and I remember it being there on the comer of Atwell's and Valley and I remember sitting on the chair watching her going. . . you know, I probably was 2 or 3 or 4 or whatever I was, and she used to make them.

00:26:25

RJ: She sold them?

00:26:27

PI: I'd imagine she did, yeah. Yeah, she used to make stacks of them. You know, she'd have this big bale of tobacco next to her, this dark tobacco, maybe that's where I get it from, smoking cigars. . . from her. I don't know. She would just take the leaf, and she would roll them, and she'd cut them. Like the stem out, you know? I remember that, and that's about all I remember, you know.

00:26:46

RJ: You said they're Italian. . . how did she learn how to make these?

00:26:52

PI: I couldn't tell you. Like I said, I only remember that vaguely, about sitting there, watching her, knowing her make them. I didn't see too much of her, because she dies pretty much in my younger years. I remember my father, during World War II, um, getting chickens and rolling them up in newspapers. . . nobody could buy chickens. And he had a mend that had chickens, so he'd wrap them up and give to his friends or sell them for what he paid for them. I remember that. That was the depression.

00:27:21

RJ: Because of: just, food scarcities?

00:27:23

PI: Scarcity, yeah. Yeah, that was the depression. Gas was scarce and, like I said, I was born in '42, so, you know, the war was on then. . . did you see that little car down there? I'm restoring that for them guys. That's a '41. So that's one year before I was born. That's why these. . . '42.'46 they didn't make no cars. All the steel and everything went to the war effort.

00:27:50

RJ: I'd heard mention of the fact that you like to restore cars.

00:27:54

PI: Yeah, I got a couple there.

00:27:56

RJ: Is that something you've been doing for long?

00:27:58

PI: Well, I do work on the side, too. Mechanic work. I worked for a fence company and I work for a landscaper. . . I take care of their trucks and everything. But this is the first time I've done, you know, a major one. I'd help people, or I'd fix certain things, but, you know, this car's been stripped right down to the chassis, put all back together and everything. But I, you know, I enjoy it. You know, nobody bothers me, I just go right along doing it.

00:28:28

RJ: When did you start working right here? Or at the Providence. . .

00:28:33

PI: Steel?

00:28:35

RJ: Yeah.

00:28:39

PI: I don't know the dates. But I had 40 years in May. So . . . uh . . . I would say it was about, right after I come back from the Guard. I'd say I was about 23- well, we figure forty. . . (counting). . . I would say I was about 22, 21, 22.

00:29:02

RJ: What work did you start doing?

00:29:03

PI: I started . . . I was a grinder, like a helper. And then I moved along to welder and then I moved over to uh, what, there was a punch-operator. Then I, about 10 years after that, 15 years after that I went in the union and I started driving the truck here. It was all. . . at that time you couldn't deliver nothing if you weren't union. 'Cause every job was union. You know, so, I did that for, I don't know . . . maybe another 20, 18 years, something like that. And then I went inside. and I've always fixed stuff here. Just but, you know, mainly I was on the road and the rest of the time I spent doing the shipping and receiving and the maintenance. So.

00:29:46

RJ: Did you ever work here at the same time as your father?

00:29:49

PI: No. Nope. Uh, he passed away. . . he was 58, 57. And, uh, he got TB. But I think a lot of it was due to all those years on the ceiling breathing all of that foundry dust. So he was, you know, he was a tough Italian. . . you know, 'Go to the doctor!' 'No, no.' He'd drink cough syrup and everything. You know, you don't tell those guys. . . you only can tell them so much. And he wouldn't go and be wouldn't go. And then he finally went, and they were gonna put him in Zambriano Hospital, which was a hospital that took care of a lot of respiratory stuff like that. And, uh, he got the letter on a Friday, and Monday he was going, and Sunday night he died. Breathing and breathing, his body was so starving for breath that his lungs burst. And he died. He died right over here on Valley Street in the house.

00:30:48

RJ: So what work did he do that involved. . .

00:30:50

PI: Well, he was up at the root: like. . . not this building, but the next building over. He used to be at the roof and he had an overhead crane and go all along the length of the root: you know, picking up steel and moving it for the guys and everything with the crane. It was like one of the cranes you sit in. But it ran on rails. Like the one we got, only a lot bigger. And he used to, he was, you know, he always had that foundry dust going up in the air. And it probably killed him.

00:31:19

RJ: So how old were you when he passed away?

00:31:25

PI: I must've been 26. Because he died in April, I got married in October. . . about that. He never got to see my son.

00:31:44

RJ: How much after your marriage was your son born?

00:31:50

PI: 2 to 3 years, I guess.

00:31:54

RJ: So you stopped school at about the tenth grade. . . and then you went into downtown employment?

00:32:05

PI: Yeah, I went to work for Newberry's as a bus boy.

00:32:08

RJ: Okay. How long did you do that?

00:32:10

PI: Eh . . . must've been a couple of years. Maybe a little more. And then, uh, like I said, we all decided to join the National Guards. . . there were 5 or 6 of us that all went down there. And, you know, we did our six months and then we come back and we finished our term, and they got out . . . and I'm the only one that stayed. And I ended up staying 35 years.

00:32:29

RJ: So did you, did you come back, um, to this neighborhood and live with your folks?

00:32:36

PI: Yes. Well, I was goin' with my wife when I was away at Fort Dix, New Jersey. She had come up to visit me. And I don't, you know, I don't know how much after that we got married.

00:32:50

RJ: And so you got back ... that did you do after you'd finished your. . . 00:32: What, the army? With that 6 months? Uh, I went to work for a fence company. And then I worked for them for 6 or 7 months. I think through the . . . you know, maybe April right through to summer. And then I came over here in October, I believe. You know, after the fence company I came here and I was there 40 years.

00:33:14

RJ: What did you do with the fence company?

00:33:17

PI: Uh, I went out and installed fences. You know, like a laborer.

00:33:22

RJ: Like agricultural fences?

00:33:24

PI: Oh no, you have your wood fences and iron fences and chain link and, yeah, that's all. Commercial fences or, you know, that's all.

00:33:32

RJ: And then you came here right away?

00:33:35

PI: I think I came here in October. 'Cause I can remember going through the summer with the fence company.

00:33:42

RJ: Okay. What made you decide to work here?

00:33:45

PI: Well it was more money. . . and my mend worked here. 'Aw, come on down and get you a job.' So I did, you know. I started off grinding beams for about 3 months. And I would say, 'Aw, maybe I should never came here.' But then it worked out.

00:34:00

RJ: What does it involve to grind beams?

00:34:02

PI: Well, we had these beams at the time and, uh . . . you know where Narragansett Brewery is? And Catherine Gibbs' up there? Well, the old brewery was there, and they were extending the brewery, and they had these beams about 40 feet long, and what they did they were. . . you know, a steel beam is like this, they cut the middle out, and they brought it like this into a point. They were using a whole bunch of these. And I had to grind all the weld. . . up and down. Yeah, that was a good introduction to this job, I tell you.

00:34:29

RJ: (Laughs. Paul's cell phone rings and he picks it up. Brief conversation, then he hangs up.)

00:34:42

RJ: You were saying, just before they called, that you were grinding beams. You were doing that all day?

00:34:49

PI: Yeah, that's it. I ground all day for about 4 or 5 months. And then I was painting the beams . . . spray painting the big beams. Like the beams you see, uh, you know, like these (Paul indicates a beam in the wall of the conference room) . . . but a lot bigger. And, uh, then what'd I do after that? Well, I went up, way in the back lot, and I was on a big saw for a while, cuttin' things, columns and beams, and then what'd I. . . I come down where. . . there used to be a big punch over here and I would punch for a few years. And, uh, then I went out in the yard and I welded for about five years. And I did layout, which was . . . put all the pieces on the beams- the clips and everything. Then I went on the road for 18 years.

00:35:32

RJ: Driving?

00:35:34

PI: A trailer. Well, I joined the union. And then I went on the road.

00:35:39

RJ: Is that how you've been all over the country?

00:35:42

PI: No, with the guards, we went all around the country. No, we did everything within an hour, 2 hours from here. Maybe Nashua, New Hampshire, uh . . . maybe Hartford, Connecticut. Couple of times I ran during the night to New Jersey or something, but that was like a special order.

00:35:56

RJ: So you were making deliveries?

00:35:58

PI: Yes. That's what I did. Well, then, like I said, when I went inside. . . well, I was the steward here . . . the union steward. Then I had 5 drivers. But then as the business slowed down, and the owner got a little older, and the kids weren't helping much and the economy was . . . one month he was making money, next month he wasn't. And he said, 'You know, I don't need this.' It wasn't like . . . he kept open, but he told me, 'You know Paul, this isn't a business, this is . . .' It was, you know, maybe to keep the family goin' and . . . so he closed in May. I stayed with him until June and then, uh, Clay had bought this building- him and Nick had bought all this the previous January. They've owned it uh, I guess we're coming up on . . . 2 years? I think it is. And maybe 3! Nope, yeah . . . I think we're coming up on 3 years. Yeah, because, uh, the first year, you know, Bill King was there and everything, then we went through that . . . and I been with him a year. Yeah, I betcha it's coming up on 3 years. I think it is.

00:37:16

RJ: Back to joining the union. . . you said that pretty much everyone was unionized at that point?

00:37:22

PI: Well, all your construction trades. So, when you went to a job, you know, you didn't have a problem. If you went. . . you know, it's not like that now. I don't know if you've heard stories of years ago with Jimmy Hoffa and all that. You know, that stuff really went on. I mean, I've seen guys, you know, get pulled outta trucks and, you know, people'd go underneath the truck and pull the pin. . . they'd pull it out and the box would drop.

00:37:48

RJ: This was if you weren't union?

00:37:50

PI: Well, yeah. Like, say you had a company and you didn't want union people, or you got your own people, and, you know. . . see, everything has changed. Everything's done with lawyers and everything. But I mean, you know, if you had a ... I don't want to get into the things that went on, but . . . I mean, that was then, and then it got to the point where, um, everything was done with lawyers. You know, you went in and sat down. . . so the people from the union had to be more educated. Because they were dealing with. . . they'd sit down, and I'd be the union representative and you'd be the company's lawyer. So, you know, I gotta be on the same keel, pretty much, with you. because if not, you're gonna make a fool out of me. You know, and I'm sitting down in the shop there, and I'm with a bunch of guys, and I'm saying, 'You know, here's the guy representin' us . . . doesn't know his beans.' You know, so. It's always changing. It's more advanced and they try to get things done through the arbitration and all those things.

00:39:00

RJ: You were the union steward?

00:39:02

PI: Yeah, yes.

00:39:03

RJ: What does that mean?

00:39:04

PI: Well, if anybody had a problem. . . but I never had any problems. The guy's a decent. . . the guys weren't bad. You know, sometimes they'd complain, but the owner, Bill King, that I dealt with in the years that I was the steward. . . he was, you know, he'd holler and scream when it come time for a raise, but, you know, you go up there and say 'I want 75,' but you actually want 50. So they're gonna jew you down to 50. But you, we dealt with older guys, and then the younger guys. Now, the older guys wanted pension money. . . and their pension. Well the younger guys wanted the hourly rate. So you had to, you know, you had to split it up, you know, because the older guys are near retirement. So they didn't care about getting a raise so much as putting money in my pension so I'm gonna retire. And the young kids, you know, 20, 23, 24 . . . well, I want cash.

00:39:58

RJ: So they'd ask you to represent them?

00:40:00

PI: Well, yeah. You'd sit down with the union and the guy would come in, you know, we'd all sit around thetable. ., but if anybody had a problem. .. the union had a problem, you'd call me. I was the first one on the. . . we never had a problem, but if you was in a union bond where all the drivers are, and you were the steward, you were the top of the list. You worked overtime. And then it went into seniority.

00:40:23

RJ: And so, was it seniority that got you the position of steward?

00:40:26

PI: No, I just ... I knew the union guy, and I got put in here and, uh, they said . . . they made me the steward. He had the prerogative to make anybody he wanted, so . . . you know, at the time there was only 2 of us and, you know, I was here for a while, so . . . it was no big deal. I get no more money. I think I got a watch once. . . nice wristwatch. And I got a hat. a couple of things like that. That's all I got out of it.

00:40:52

RJ: How many people were working here at that time? What time period was this?

00:40:58

PI: '70's? Let me see . . . I'd say the '70's to the middle of the '80's. He had about 60 people working here. He had about 3 drivers. Then we went up to 5 or 6 drivers. The office had quite a few. . . he had about 60, 70 people. When this place closed, I think there was 8.

00:41:19

RJ: And did they slowly. . .

00:41 :20

PI: Yeah, well, you know. . . it was the, you know, we went through the buildings trade, and things got slow. You know, everything got slow and, you know, you try to keep the business open. And we lost all our good people, and all the people that were competent and all that, you know. It's too bad. But like he said to me, you know, one day he said, 'You know, this is not a business.' He tried to keep it open for the kids, but the kids couldn't wake up to realize it, and ...

00:41:47

RJ: For his own kids?

00:41:48

PI: Yes.

00:41:49

RJ: It was family owned.

00:41:51

PI: Yes. And actually, all the way up it was family owned. The first people that started the business. . . now, they started this business a hundred years ago. 1903. . . and they closed 2003. A hundred years. And, that was a family owned. And then they sold to this . . . well, it was two family owned, you know, there was two families. . . and then it went to Mr. King, who had worked there since he was 18. He'd never had another job, and he ended up buying the place in 1980.

00:42:22

RJ: Has it always produced. . .

00:42:23

PI: Steel. Structural steel. And it was the steel. . . it used to be Providence Steel and Iron. And then, the iron went away. . . nobody used iron anymore. . . and then it went to Providence Steel, Incorporated. But the iron. . . but they used to make handrails, wrought iron rails. . . they got away from a lot of that. You know, nobody. . . different people. . . it's too costly to do them things anymore.

00:42:51

RJ: Too costly here in Providence, or . . .

00:42:53

PI: Yeah, well, plus you lost the guys that know how to do it. When he died, there was nobody to replace him . . . we had guys here . . . one guy was a blacksmith from Iowa. He could take anything and bend it. just with a punch, no fancy stuff. He died, and then we had to send everything out to a place to be done. You know, the craftsmen are all gone. You know, that's why the guys that are in here. . . they want to be craftsmen. I mean, it amazes me the stuff they come up with, you know? I'm always giving them a hand with ... we still have a lot of the big machines here, you know, and, uh, it's really something. You see the things they make . . . they're very hard working. They says, 'Yeah, well, you're hanging down there with those artists.. .' And I says, 'Yeah, but you guys gotta come down here.' And I bring my friends down here and take them around, show them what they're doing. You know, we got a guy that does slate roofs in here. . . he's from Vermont, he works on slate roofs. We got Gillian over there. . . she does all the things out of stainless steel. And, uh, blacksmith schoo Um, what else we got? We got the car restoration department. And, uh, we got ceramics there. One the kids is from, Dave Allen, he's from RISD . . . he was teacher there. He's over there with his girlfriend Meredith. Uh, the whole shop over there is all, like, craft schools.

00:44:18

RJ: So, there was a period there, where it was just older men were interested in . . . that had these skills and they're weren't any younger folks involved?

00:44:26

PI: There was nothing coming along. . . yeah. That's what happened, you know, it's. . . and then we started with guys that didn't want to come into work. . . who's the ones over here always had problems. You know, you just got to a point- it was '72, '73 . . . Mr. King, he said, 'I don't need this anymore.' He owns a lot of property, a lot of houses. He didn't need this. So he just said, 'I'm gonna close up.' And he did. You know, he finally found. . . Clay and them guys end up buying it.

00:44:54

RJ: Why do you think . . . this is vague, but why do you think it was that folks around here weren't interesting in, like, a 'next generation' of . . .

00:45:03

PI: I don't know. Like I said, uh, I don't know, I guess the young kids now have it too easy, they don't want to work. . . or, I don't know what it is. You know, we had a lot of problems. .. maybe... the last four or five years we had a lot of competition from Canada. It was coming down here, getting all the buildings. And then you have a lot of; you know, uh, people that don't pay their help like we were paying the help. You know, low paid help. I think that's what mainly it is. You know, we been on the job and then somebody from Canada get it. We've seen companies from down south come up here and get jobs off us.

00:45:41

RJ: And when did that international. . .

00:45:44

PI: Trade agreement? Yeah, I don't know when it was . . . eight, ten years ago. something like that. I'm not sure.

00:45:50

RJ: You think it's the trade agreement?

00:45:51

PI: Well, plus, you know, like the steel companies. . . I don't know about everything up there, but I'm mainly talking steel issues. They gave subsidies to the companies up there. The Canadian Government gave them subsidies. You know, you're dealing with another company. . . you're dealing with subsidies. how could you compete price wise? When they can come down here from Canada, bring the steel all the way down here and everything, I mean, uh, and a company right here can't compete? And you got all the foreign steel now- no more. . . I don't think there's anymore- maybe one or so . . . uh, steel mills in the United States that produce steel.

00:46:38

RJ: But this was all pretty recent. . . that international competition started to be a problem?

00:46:42

PI: Well, I seen, like, in the last, maybe eight years we were getting a lot of competition from you know, Canada, down south.

00:46:51

RJ: So what were you doing here. . . what was your responsibility toward the end when they decided to close down?

00:46:57

PI: Everything. Take care of the building. . . uh, take care if they had a leak in the upstairs, take care of the trucks. Little bit of handling of men. it was everything. You know, I was here so long, it was no problem. And then I stayed 'til all the machinery was moved out. And I stuck around here 'til November, then when I was leaving, the Clay asked me to stay on and we went to a half a day . . . now it's a full day.

00:47:25

RJ: (Laughs) Was that a hard decision for you to decide to stay on?

00:47:28

PI: No, because I was ... well I ended up with another position. Matter of fact, I had a job with the bus company. You know, if you've seen those vans, [SafeRiDE]. I had the job. But then, I didn't really care for it, you know. So I'd been with these guys from January all the way through the summer. . . so I knew, uh, you know, and with everybody else. So when they asked me to stay on, they said, you know. . . and I said, 'Yeah, no problem. I'll stay on.' And then after a month they said, :You got any problems?' I said if} had any problems, then I'd come see them. I don't have any problems. I have more laughs during the day than anything, you know. They treat me right and, you know, they treat me with respect and I've never come across anyone of them, or anybody in here, that isn't the same way. They're a nice bunch of kids, I'll tell you. And I say 'kids' because I'm . . . you know what I'm saying? Like sometimes I see somebody, 'Who's that old man?' And then, 'Hey, Paul, you know?'

00:48:32

RJ: So are there not too many folks around the neighborhood in general who used to work at the steel mill?

00:48:37

PI: No. Everybody's pretty much. . . like I say, this is all a wire company now. They make display cases. On the other side, the only steel guy around here is Capco . . . he did the same thing we did. But he was in Connecticut, and then he moved down here, he took those buildings. Blood center. . . where the Blood Center is, that used to be a steel supply house. . . they used to be Condon and Carpenter. Next door, like I say, I think the state of Rhode Island's running it . . . I'm not sure if they are. Uh, and all these buildings here have got little small shops. And, uh, Clay's in here. He's got it mostly all rental pieces. . . you know, artist's lofts. And then you go over there and you got all that Struever's and all that. And a lot of that's gonna be renta1 space and rental lofts. And then, across the street is the old . . . on that side is the old Baseworks GE. They used to make light bulbs- that's why they called it the 'Baseworks' . . . they make the bases for light bulbs. That's closed, that never opened. . . that closed about fifteen years ago. That never re-opened. And like I said, over here you got Fantasies. You got the court. And then down here, on the . . . pretty much on the comer there is all lofts . . . you know, rental lofts.

00:49:49

RJ: Is this 'lofts' thing a pretty new phenomenon?

00:49:51

PI: Oh yeah. Well, it started in the back of Shaw's. In back of Shaw's is a building facing out this way . . . well, that was all artists' lofts. And then when they decided to have that big. . . build a big Eagle Square, they come up with some kind of agreement. . . that, with the artists. You know, it was like, Fort Thunder and they were picketing and it was really something. So, uh, they worked some agreement where they do the buildings, but they'd save a lot of those lofts and try to make them affordable. I don't know how that's going, so much, but I know there's a lot in these buildings over here.

00:50:30

RJ: Did you see the picketing for Fort Thunder?

00:50:33

PI: Yeah. They were all out there.

00:50:36

RJ: This was a couple of years ago?

00:50:38

PI: Yeah, not even that much. You know, this was before they started the project. Because, they've refurbed all the buildings. . . and they were gonna tear some of them down. and they made them reverse their development to suite them buildings.

00:50:52

RJ: So was Fort Thunder like a big presence here before they. . .

00:50:56

PI: Well, no, but I noticed. . . well, they called it Fort Thunder. They had a big sign up, and I saw the artists on the two top floors. And then they went down. . . and when I say 'artists', I'm t~ all the ceramics and . . . 1- it's just a generalization. There was some down in Olneyville. I don't know if you read a while back, where they got. . . they were renting a place, and they never had a lease, and they got all thrown out. 'Bout a year now ago, or so . . . less. Well, they were down. there was a lot down there. Then over here, now it's all 'round here.

00:51:30

RJ: When did it become, like . . . I've often heard the West Side and all of these mill buildings referred to as 'artists' spaces' . . . is that a new thing around here?

00:51:41

PI: Yeah. Well I would say new in the past four or five years. You know, down on Bradley Street . . . you know where Bradley Street is? The playground is over there? Those mills are over there? You know, converted into condos and office space and ... you know, it's a big thing.

00:51:58

RJ: Rising Sun?

00:51:59

PI: Rising Sun, yeah.

00:52:01

RJ: Were those spaces just abandoned before. . .

00:52:04

PI: They were all mills. As a matter of fact, they displaced one company out of there, 'cause, you know, they didn't want that type in there. Not the actual people, but the type of stuff they were doing wasn't conducive to what they wanted to do with the building. So they moved them out. . . now I just heard somebody's rented some of it, and .,. see, that, with the Rising Sun, they're taking care of the playground, too. They put all the stuff ~ there and everything. Because one of the girls. . . her father is Schneider [Struever] Brothers. Well, Sara. . . she's the one that called me about. . .

00:52:42

RJ: Sara Struever?

00:52:43

PI: Yeah. Well, her father does that development there.

00:53:11

RJ: Mostly it's just amazing to see, um, a continuous perspective on Providence because . there's so much. . .

00:53:33

PI: Well, they've done a lot in there. If you had seen this, maybe 15 years ago, all this walkway was all just grass, and the water was unbelievable. Because all your mills pumped their sewage in there. You know, all the water was down. . . I mean, we used to go up in there and we used fish, but you could never eat the fish. . . 'cause, man, you know. . . some of them fish used to come out. they used to glow, they had so much chemicals in them. But you see, we used to go up in here. . . that water will take you almost all the way to Olneyville. Since the, you know- everybody's had the clean-ups and you know, it's due to all the artists and everybody cleaning up the river. It's a lot better now.

00:54:04

RJ: So, that's like the last five years?

00:54:07

PI: Yeah, maybe that. Something like that. You know, when they started doing these water cleanups. And people're starting to clean up- take care of their property, you know. When somebody doesn't take care if it, then it spreads. You know, like I come in here in the morning and I know guys. . . people park here, I find beer bottles. But if I take them up . . . and then I put a barrel out, and it seems like they'll throw them in the barrel now. See I don't, you know, I get here in the morning about twenty past six and I take a walk down the street and I pick up any beer bottles. You know, they might buy them and then they'll throw them out. There's nothing I can do about it, but if I keep puttin' them, lettin' them. . . and the minute they turn the corner and see one beer bottle, they'll throw one next to it. So if they don't see it, maybe they'll say well, 'Let me take it where. . .' You know, if I put a barrel out they'll fill the whole barrel. Then I got a guy that comes by looking for cans and bottles. . . so he empties the barrel for me. I got like a little plan going.

00:55:01

RJ: And so you see things around here as being on the upswing?

00:55:07

PI: Well, it seems like the city's doing more. You see that apartment complex down at the end of the street there right down by the mall? I mean, that's a lot of apartments in there. And the people that own that don't want garbage around, they don't want, you know. They want the place clean. They've invested millions of dollars in there and they want the city to meet them halfway, I would say.

00:55:32

RJ: And so, you think that they are doing that?

00:55:34

PI: I think so. You know, I don't know if they're . . . how they're doing on renting them around there, but, uh, you know, there's a lot of space over here when you're coming down because you got the building just before you get to the next street, on the other side. Y o~ go by the courts, and then the building by the end of the street, there's a lot of lofts in there, too. You know, they're trying to get people in there, so.. . There's a lot of space, but see, the thing is, with the energy with these buildings. They weren't made energy. conscious, you know, like, the roofs are high. Well, you see how high these roofs are? You could never heat this place.

00:56:10

RJ: Were they just cold when you were working here before?

00:56:12

PI: Yeah. When I first came here there was four coal stoves here. And every morning it's four coals. Now we got, uh, 1, 2, 3 . . . 3 oil burners. Which, remember, when you're bringing it down to 40 . . . when you'll still be cold, but at least. . . but once you open the door. whoosh, it's gone. But that's the way you did things years ago.

00:56:35

RJ: So the solution is just to refurbish?

00:56:36

PI: Well, a lot of these companies said, you know, 'Let's go out to the suburbs, or whatever, and put a one-story building up.' With insulation and everything. And these buildings were never insulated, you know, when they were built. . . and insulation was no big thing. You know, now you can cut the energy costs in half. You know, the old furnaces and boilers, they use up so much fuel. You know, I mean, every time you turn around the price of oil has gone up. I mean, it's astronomical. You know, I turn these on the in the morning for an hour and then I shut it right off. Because I'm just wasting money. I'll wait 'til it gets really cold and I really have to put them on. then I will.

00:57:17

RJ: Yeah. .. that definitely seems like it would present itself as a serious problem.

00:57:23

PI: Yeah, and it's expensive, you know. And like I said, they can take a building and build a one story building. . . uh, manufactured place that's more energy efficient, and save money. Like I said, around here, they're making it into lofts and apartments. I mean, Sarah's father is dumping a lot of money into that place. I mean he got. . . I mean it was all mills years ago. Like I said, if you go down this river here and follow it right along, you come right behind those buildings.

00:57:49

RJ: Do you think it's worth saving the mill buildings?

00:57:52

PI: Well, I guess there like a tax, you know. . . thing . . . and you know, you're bringing back old buildings. you're not tearing them all down. You know, the structure of these are good buildings, they have to be made. . . uh, with the times.

00:58:04

RJ: So is it strange, for you, to see all, like . . . I mean, how is it for you to see refurbished...

00:58:11

PI: Well, I mean look at this. He did this. he left the beam here (paul indicates beams and rollers in the conference room) . . . there's the roller to run the saw. When I came here, everything here was running by belts. See that belt there. that belt ran down there. That belt went into the motor and made the saw work. You know, and all the punchers were down there. . . and I say, it's nice, this stuff. I like this kind of stuff. You know, I do . . . you've seen outside, out in the other room, there? It's nice, they sanded the floors and everything. This was a shop up here- this guy used to make cardboard templates and then we'd take them down, put them on a beam and mark the holes. That's what the guys did all day. That was his job. Well, then we got a punch that was a computerized punch. . . so he'd make up the disk, put it in, hit the button, the beam go through and punch it out and come out the other side.

00:59:02

RJ: Was the technology changing a lot?

00:59:06

PI: It changed a lot, the technology. But you know, the owner didn't want to invest the money to keep up with it. and that was another thing. You know, the guy down the street's got all the best of technology. You know, you got the. . . this machine, that machine. And so, in comes Providence Steel, which was here, using equipment from 40, 50 years ago . . . you know, it got to be . . . here goes the workmanship- I want the speed. Here's a job- you got a job here, today's Thursday and I want it Monday. You know, when I first came here, we did one job at a time. The last jobs we did, we had 6 and 7 going through.

00:59:45

RJ: And so ... did speed matter just because they needed. .. .

00:59:47

PI: Oh, yeah. Well, speed did. because you had to buy the machine. . . you had to invest in the machinery. Second of all, you wasn't the workmanship, you know. . . and so you're hurrying instead of the guy making the weld a little better. . . it's gone. You know, something bas to suffer. And that's a lot of the workmanship. . . and you couldn't compete with the, you know. . . 'You want this job?' 'Yeah. We want it for Monday.' 'Oh, well I can't get it for Monday.' 'Oh. I can get It for Monday.' Well, he got the job. And here he is with all the modern shop, and here you are with the old shop.