[00:00:00]
Brandon Cook: Ok, umm, just say test or something?
Ingrid Knapp: Test.
BC: Ok, yah, that should be quite good.
IK: Test test test test
BC: Cool, it should be on. Can you just say your name and date of birth?
IK: I'm Ingrid Knapp, and I was born in March, 1965.
BC: Born where?
IK: In Queens, New York City.
BC: Did you have any siblings?
IK: I have two older sisters and a younger brother.
BC: And what was the family situation like?
IK: Oh, my parents are immigrants from Germany. And, umm, my father – we lived in a working class neighborhood, and he was a, most of the time of my childhood he had a white collar job doing drafting for architectural firms. And... and we were Catholic. [laughs] Which probably has a lot to do with my interest in ACT-UP. So... what else...? Oh, and I went to a very, I went to a great highschool in New York City, I went to Hunter College Highschool which was a, what do they call it, a studying school for Hunter College? A teaching school. And it was also, it was for quote unquote intellectually gifted kids. So the, the kids that I ran into there and just the cultural life there was very rich and horizon expanding.
BC: Was that a private school, or...?
IK: It was a public school, yeah. Like a college prep school, but public.
[00:02:03]
BC: And then where did you go after there?
IK: I went to University of Virginia. And I got a B.A. In German Language and Literature.
BC: So how did you become involved in ACT-UP?
IK: How did I become involved in ACT-UP? Well, I probably wonder a lot about that myself. Umm... in college I had gotten very very close to a guy, a bisexual guy who was HIV positive. And that concerned me, and I also, at the time I kind of felt like AIDS was a very critical political issue. Even though politics basically either scares or... confuses me, or repels me [laughs], I felt like I was looking for some way to do something positive. And I felt like ACT-UP was saying, members of ACT-UP were saying things that needed to be said and needed to be thought about. And I was very impressed with the work Rhode Island members were doing about needle exchange. Yeah, so... I'm trying to remember when I first heard of ACT-UP. Probably at a gay pride parade?
BC: In like... '87?
IK: More like '88 – oh, you know, actually wait a minute, I...
[00:04:00]
[Loud Phone Ring, interview paused momentarily]
IK: Oh, when I moved to Rhode Island in '87, in the fall, and I got involved in Rhode Island Project AIDS, I went through buddy training? And I met Steve... pronounce his name Gendin? Gendrin? I think Gendin there, and he was often talking about actions that were going on in ACT-UP or protests or things like that, so I went to a few meetings and went to some protests and things like that. And that's kind of how I got involved.
BC: How early into the organization's life did you join?
IK: Well, probably in '88. I think they had – I don't remember when ACT-UP New York had done most of its sort of founding work. There was an infamous incident in New York where some ACT-UP members had interrupted a mass at St Patrick's Cathedral. And part of me thought that that was really cool, but it also kind of haunted me as I considered continuing with ACT-UP because I knew people who were really horrified that they would take like a spiritual... you know, what some people would considered a spiritual object and just, you know, throw Eucharist on the floor. So that was, I mean... I think that's very indicative of me and others in our early '20s who were just like, “Yeah, let them all rot!” But also umm, it turned out, I had to ask myself whether there weren't maybe some better approaches to dealing with... Catholics. [laughs] And you know, I mean, the Catholic hierarchy and Catholic politics and Catholic dogma is really really difficult to deal with now as well as then.
[00:06:20]
IK: But I think that had already happened, and... so I was intruiged by what ACT-UP could do here. And I felt like, I felt like I wanted to do something – I felt like, I was always repelled from political activism and drawn into it at the same time, and I think that has a lot to do with my family's roots in Germany. My parents were born in the '30s, so they were children during the Nazi era. And there were various stories, even my father's stories changed a little bit from umm... hating them to trying to kind of pacify me and say, you know, don't get too worked up over it and that kind of thing. So I felt, well I think I always felt guilty about Nazi violence and the holocaust. And so I wanted to do something, but I don't, thinking about it later on I remember a conversation with a friend of mine toward the end of my involvement with ACT-UP where I was realizing that that had a role that I hadn't realized before. And I kind of felt like well, you know then maybe ACT-UP isn't really the means and the organization for me to approach political activism. But I thought they did really good things in a way. So it was good to, I think it was good to ya know, to participate, to learn...
[00:08:29]
BC: Were your parents and family aware of your involvement in ACT-UP?
IK: They... they were, they were moderately aware. Like, I'd tell them I was coming down to New York for the gay pride parade. And they were freaked out. But, you know, they were mostly quiet about it. You know, they probably had a quiet concern about it, more my father than my mother, my mother was a little more open minded. It wasn't the kind of thing we could talk about very much. So I probably told them about it to kind of put it in their face. And here I was this new grown up, so I thought that that was fairly cool. I wouldn't do it now, you know, but umm... but I think it's, I think when my now 8 year old son does that to me, I'll try to remember what he's going through. [laughs] So they knew about that, they didn't, they might have known a little bit about my being involved in ACT-UP but we couldn't have conversations about it. Partially because I wasn't very articulate about what I was trying to accomplish there, and didn't even really know. But I did know I was going to Rhode Island ACT-UP meetings, and especially a few meetings in New York, I was able to learn a lot about what was going on, and that was important to me both because I was thinking about this friend of mine and also I was sort of dipping my toe into the waters of political awareness.
[00:10:31]
BC: Umm, so where you involved in both New York and Rhode Island's ACT-UP chapters? Or did you just go to...
IK: I just went a few times to New York, A because I had come from there and B because a few Rhode Islanders you know, sometimes most of the members would go for a big action or something or a big – there was a big protest probably in early '89 that most of us went to.
BC: How was ACT-UP Rhode Island itself structured? Like, how were decisions about demonstrations come to?
IK: I think there were officers, I'm pretty sure there were officers although I couldn't tell you who they were. There were a few people who knew – well, from my perspective, who knew more or less what was going on politically and what bills we were concerned about (or wanted to be concerned about). I... well, this is so long ago, but I remember... what's that procedure that, for you make a motion and someone seconds the motion and then you vote or... Parliamentary procedure, yeah, they more or less used that. And they also had just free discussion in the middle of it. So it was kind of, you know, it was semiformal.
BC: But not very hierarchical?
IK: Well you know, I felt so very on the fringe anyway that I might not have been very in tune to that. Yeah, I was one of one or two or three women who were showing up. So there was a little bit... I also felt like what the hell am I doing in this group of men where I'm not really knowing what's going on. It didn't really, didn't really help my feminist development. But at the same time, I was there and I was interested, so...
[00:12:47]
BC: Were there any other smaller groups within the organization? Like, was there much of umm racial diversity or socioeconomic diversity? Were the heterosexuals involved too, or was it mostly Anglo-Saxon gay men?
IK: It was mostly Anglo-Saxon, it was a lot of Brown students or maybe at least half Brown students. There might have been a few African Americans, there were a few women. I think economically most people were middle class or near middle class.
BC: And was most of the, most of the actions you did, were they mostly Rhode Island focused?
IK: Yes, yes. We did one really good action whose political result I don't remember very well. But we went through a civil disobedience training that was really great. There's a nun I still see sometimes who I think organized this with steve, Ann Walsh or something like that?
BC: W-A-L-S-H?
[00:14:30]
IK: I think so, yeah. And I'm pretty sure she's a Sister of Mercy cause that is where I think I've seen her lately. And she did a terrific training about civil disobedience that remains with me. Umm, so, and that was a nice counterpoint to the Eucharist smashing you know, cause ok, that's not the only option. [laughter] So yeah, and I remember after that we did an action at the department of health. And I was very excited about my poster that I wrote, which was “Don't You Prick Me” regarding mandatory testing of inmates, or maybe even groups broader than inmates. And I think one or two people got arrested. Umm... and there was a women's sort of group, there was a woman I think named Maria Christina but I don't know if I'll remember her last name, who moved here from New York probably? And maybe two other women? Most people were college students, so very transitory.
BC: Was there a lot of overturn in the community, or umm... Like was there a very central community that seemed to form the basis of the organization?
IK: Other than the gay community in Rhode Island?
BC: Well I mean like, did it feel like ACT-UP itself kind of created a social group... in itself? Did you ever socialize outside of meetings with other ACT-UP members?
[00:16:45]
IK: Yeah, yeah. Definitely.
BC: Were there ever planned events and stuff, or would you just spill over from a meeting?
IK: I think both. I think both. And there was also overlap with the pride committee or the alliance. But you were asking before about heterosexual members? I think i was the only straight person there, I think so, yeah.
BC: Did you ever feel at all differentiated because of that? Like, did it ever feel like your voice kind of was at least... occupied a very different space from theirs, or...?
IK: I didn't feel like it did for that reason. I think it did, I mean, I think it did just because I was much more tentative in my involvement and tentative in my interest in being an activist. I remember after the civil disobedience training I was concerned about getting arrested cause I wasn't sure how it would affect my record if I wanted to teach in a public school in the future. So I was, you know, I was – and I never felt like “Oh my god, this is the cause that I have to be involved in and I'm going to help change thr world through this.” I felt more like I was learning and dipping my toe in the pond. And I also knew much less than everyone else about the politics and the issues and the legislation. So I felt like I was, I felt like I didn't have a very strong voice because of those reasons.
[00:18:50]
BC: Do you remember, when you went to meetings were they still held at The Rocket? Or...
IK: Oh some were held at The Rocket, some were held... it might have been at the Providence Center. Yeah, a bunch were held there.
BC: What was that environment like?
IK: Well it was just the room, it was just like a classroom, you know? It had a linoleum floor and it had those chrome chairs, those chrome and plastic chairs. And we'd just kind of put those chairs in a circle and talk and brainstorm.
BC: This was at the Providence Center?
IK: At the Providence Center, yeah.
BC: What were the meetings at the Rocket like?
IK: I'm trying to remember how many I went to, umm... [laughs] darker, certainly much darker. The whole place was painted black, people would you know have some beer or stuff like that while we were meetings, umm... my memories are fuzzier about that [laughs], could that be the beer? I think they were a little smaller, I don't remember discussing as much there. I think they might've disintegrated into social action.
BC: Do you remember if there was much dating within the community, or...?
[00:20:32]
IK: There was some, there was some, I know there was at least one couple or one couple who was on and off. And they guys were always talking about their, some of them were talking about their sexual adventures, which was very educational to me. [laughs] And umm, like there were places in the park where you could go cruising and they would do it, and at least one of them maybe a couple of them, and so... I suppose there was a certain voyeuristic interest on my part as well. But umm, other than like one more or less stable couple there might have been the few rotations and explorations.
BC: Did it ever feel like any of that tension flared at all in meetings or was a problem at all?
IK: I don't, I didn't get that impression. If I did, it hasn't stayed with me for the past 18 years.
BC: How many of the members were HIV positive?
IK: I think, I think I knew of two. But I don't know that everyone who was would've brought that up. It seemed like the kind of environment where they would, but now that I'm older I'm thinking that maybe they wouldn't.
BC: Did that ever seem to change their standing in the group at all? Like, did it seem like their voice maybe carried a little more weight or less weight or...?
[00:22:36]
IK: More weight, more weight, yeah. They were the people we were really trying to help soonest.
BC: Do you
remember any of the specific media exposure that ACT-UP got?
IK:
There was at least, that protest that I mentioned before got covered
in the New Paper, which is what the Providence Phoenix was before?
Everyone was dissatisfied with the Projo's coverage – the
Providence Journal? That's all I remember.
BC: You don't remember any specific articles in he Projo or in...
IK: No, I didn't read the newspaper. [laughs]
BC: Do you remember any interaction between ACT-UP and the other similar organizations in Providence? Like AIDS Project Rhode Island, or anything like that, was there much dialogue between the organizations?
IK: My sense is that there was dialogue. The strongest link was Stephen, who was in it, in both. And they probably talked about what the HIV positive, like Project AIDS probably would've been talking about what they thought the HIV positive community in Rhode Island needed and would've maybe made some suggestions about what sort of legislation or attention ACT-UP might aim for. But they, and of course we were all at the Gay Pride parades, and... I don't think Rhode Island AIDS folks really came to meetings except maybe once in a while to see what was going on, some people wanted to be involved in both or just check it out or talk about specific issues.
BC: Did the social community of ACT-UP Rhode Island seem to change at all as the organization grew or as we moved into the 90s?
IK: I think I stopped going around the spring or summer of 1990. So, umm... I met my husband around then, and I'm thinking, well this is yeah the ACT-UP meetings were a lot more about dating as I remember in context with now knowing my husband. So umm, in the '90s I think they grew a bit and... what was your question?
BC: Oh I was just wondering if the community had, felt like the community had grown or evolved at all or if it was more of like a core membership that seemed to stay constant.
IK: I think there was a core membership, and then some people kind of drifted in and out.
BC: Why did you eventually leave?
[00:26:37]
IK: Umm, I thought that I should spend more of my energy pursuing my interest in writing.
BC: How did it feel once you had left? Like, did you feel a sense of relief or a sense of frustration or... just, no longer to be involved actively?
IK: Umm, more relief than frustration, but... hmm. I dunno, I mean, by the time I realized that I thought I was involved in ACT-UP because of A this friend of mine and B issues around Nazi politics, I really kind of felt like ok so what exactly was it I was trying to do here? And I thought that, I thought that I had never really particularly fit there. But at the same time looking back now I think it was very useful for me to be there and just to kind of like try on activism at least somewhere and just sort of continue this search. I really have a lot of respect for activists and I'm very aware of the burnout and the difficulty.
[00:28:50]
IK: So I admire that. Like Stephen, I know he's been involved for a really long time, and probably Padric [Meagher] too. And a few of the other guys like Wayne, I dunno his last name, and there was another guy who was a good friend of Wayne's. I have a lot of admiration for them. I didn't know how to make myself useful there, and I didn't really know what to make myself useful in. So I left also with a little bit of regret, like umm, taking on a little more of the identity of my apathetic generation. I mean, that was something that from highschool on people would complain and talk so much about how apathetic people were and how that was the greatest danger to social justice. And I agree, but at the same time politics was too terrifying for me to really get into, and I think I'm still trying to get over that. But I vote. [laughs]
BC: So you didn't go on to do any other activist work at all?
[00:30:34]
IK: I got, to tell you the truth it was time for me to really pay attention to getting a job. So I spent some time in that, I went to grad school, I worked for a while with my now husband.
BC: What did you study in grad school?
IK: In grad school I studied in creative writing, fiction writing.
BC: And where did you?
IK: At Emerson college. I did a tiny bit of activism, or got a little bit involved with the million mom march for gun control? Oh, but I was also, in between I was also – I'm trying to think of the years now – at some point I got involved with the Rhode Island Committee for Nonviolence Initiatives, which was active for maybe about two and a half years and some people from that group peeled off and formed the institute for the study and practice of nonviolence that's working on setting up offices and actually renovating a whole building in South Providence right now.
BC: And what was the active focus of the group? I mean, obviously nonviolence, but what sort of -
IK: They did training, mostly they wanted to do trainings and trainings of trainers to work for nonviolence training, Kingian mostly Kingian nonviolence training for educators for students, against domestic violence and poverty related violence, and even racial violence. So I think that's what they're still working toward now, those who are carried over from that group. And I got involved in some demonstrations and letter writing and emailing, for Move On against the war in Iraq. What a nightmare, nothing that's happening now is a surprise to any of the people that were against it in the beginning.
[00:33:24]
BC: Would you say you're glad that you had your experiences with ACT-UP?
IK: Oh yeah, yeah. I think, you know, for me who has this sort of, it seems that my difficulty with politics and activism is kind of unique and for me who has this sort of strange background it was something that I needed to look into I needed to figure out that this is why I'm never really diving in or really speaking louder, or you know... I think that toward the end of my involvement with ACT-UP I was much more comfortable giving my opinion even though I felt like I knew less or was less emotionally connected to the issue than the people I was with, than they other members. I felt like I had started to learn how to voice my opinion. And that's critical, that's like the kind of thing that I want my son to be able to do.
BC: So what're you up to today?
IK: I'm taking care of my kid. My son has umm, well, we've had an interesting few years. My husband's family in Greece, is in Greece his mom and his sister and her family and his mom is sick and we spent 8 months there last year so that my husband could help take care of his mom, give his sister a bit of a break and a lot of moral support, and so that our son could get to know his grandmother. And I also got to know his family and Greek culture and get a little break from the 9 to 5 world. So we did that and when we got back in august of last yea our son started first grade and he's getting special education and I've spent a lot of time organizing that and advocating for him and taking care of him, just kind of giving him extra attention that he needs. And I've really enjoyed being a mom.
[00:36:36]
BC: Is there anything else you want to talk about?
IK: You know, I realize that I don't even know what's going on with ACT-UP now. So many you can fill me in on or off the air. I know Peter Cohen wrote a book, and my impression is that Stephen is really still involved... and I think it was a really good experience, I think it was great for me to at least be part of or be very much aware of people speaking up about homophobia and about anti-gay policies and dealing with a health crisis that was so closely tied to mainstream America's fears and prejudices. So, so that's... that was very positive.
[00:38:09]
[Recording stopped and then restarted at Interviewee's request]
BC: Ok.
IK: There's one more thing that I remember from those years which was that at the Gay Pride parades, at least one of them maybe two of them, I got dressed up in my highschool promdress which was this – like a ball gown basically, and as the empress of Latex, handed out condoms and dental dams and was a, I dunno, a character in the fight for safe sex. [laughs] Yeah, that was, that was a lot of fun.
[00:39:00]
[end of interview]