[Beginning of TAPE 2]
[00:00:00]
Brandon Cook: Alright, it should be on again.
Tim Engles: I just want to say before I forget that Marc Paige's AIDS activism certainly didn't end with his leaving ACT-UP. For many many years he would go around to public schools, of course arranging with the principal and whoever he needed to arrange with in advance, talking about HIV transmission, AIDS, what it's like living with AIDS... and umm, he's a real community activist, I want to underscore that. It wasn't like he got involved in AIDS activism for a two year period and then stopped, I mean he's an AIDS activist. I'm a supporter. But for many years he, and he may do the same thing in Florida I dunno, he would write letters to the editor of the Providence Journal. So to say something good for the Projo, occasionally they would get in. And I think Marc was, I dunno, I'd put it this way I would suspect that he began to be respected by some people for a very obvious commitment to AIDS education. I mean it's really hard to argue with that unless you are one of these people who thinks that ignorance is going to somehow prevent children from contracting diseases. And so, so Marc is a very dedicated activist.
BC: Umm, this will take things in a very different direction, but if you don't mind my asking -
TE: Sure.
BC: Was your family aware of your involvement in ACT-UP?
[00:01:43]
TE: Yes, they were. Umm, I think we never really talked about it very much, but I would never... by the time I, it was really great for me to come out for ya know 9,000 reasons, but when I came out it was then very easy to talk about that. I mean I have no problems, it wasn't like I said “Ok mom and dad, I'm gay, I have a boyfriend, and that's it.” No, I was quite vocal about what I was doing and just politics in general. To me this was part of a larger political struggle and so whenever... and whenever I would start to talk too much to my parents about politics we'd always start fighting, because they're very conservative republicans and I'm just... I'm not. At least, I'm not a republican. So when issues would come up, I never felt like I was baiting them or you know trying to stir things up, but I would, I felt that it was very important to talk to them about it. But we talked more about the gay thing than the AIDS thing. I'm trying to think if I ever really talked to friends who weren't so involved. Well yeah, I talked to friends who weren't so involved... well yeah I talked to friends who weren't really involved, probably would be supportive but weren't so involved even as involved as I was in trying to help people with AIDS and work on those issues. I dunno that... I certainly can't say that I was like some sort of hardcore educator, go around and tell your friends... but I certainly wouldn't shy away from it, I felt very comfortable if that's where you're going, I felt very comfortable talking about my involvement. You know if might've been longer, but I went on to other directions.
BC: Did it seem like they were very receptive, or...?
TE: People in general or my parents?
BC: Both. Whatever you feel comfortable with...
[00:04:00]
TE: Ok, umm... people in general, well my friends put it that way, friends coworkers here, yes. Because I know that I live – all of my friends are very open minded kind of progressive people, my coworkers seem to be too. I mean, I talk more with friends than coworkers about it, but nobody... for example when people would see me on the news ya know, a demonstration would be covered, channel 10 would be there, and people would be like “Oh, I saw you on the news lastnight.” And actually that was kind of interesting because about the time that I was involved in these demonstrations, I was sort of new... I was working at the Rockefeller library and I was sort of new there. And it's a big place, a lot of staff; when you come on to start working at a place like that there are lots of people whose names you barely know, you don't know, you think “Oh wait, he works somewhere over there...” So when someone like that would say “Oh, I saw you on the news lastnight.” I knew what they were talking about. And I was just, I was... I felt, I didnt' feel that there would be any negative repercussions as far as my job, I mean for godsake I just didn't, that was not a concern. But I just thought, “Hmm. I wonder what that person feels about this.” And not just AIDS activism too, I always feel like I'm a little bit of an imposter when I talk about my 'AIDS activism', it was so brief but ya know I was there... but in general just more gay or queer activism, people would see me on the news. We had a demonstration against amendment two in Colorado in Kennedy Plaza soon after it passed and that was a good demonstration, the media were there and I felt lucky enough that some reporter just decided, “Oh, here's somebody to talk to.” And I was for whatever reason just ready with a good soundbyte. And several people thought, in the demonstration, “Oh my god, I couldn't have done that!” Well of course they could have they were just being modest. But it felt really good and I thought, oh, I'm going to hear about this at work tomorrow.
[00:06:18]
TE: And umm, several people would say “Oh yeah, I saw you on the news lastnight.” But they'd never go beyond that. And that was ok, I didn't feel like saying, especially to people I didn't know very well because I was new at the library, “Oh really so what did you think about that?” It would've been a legitimate thing to ask but I'm fairly... maybe not politically conservative but at least conservative in nature and I just, I don't like to push people, my approach would be much more just let them think about it. Just let them think about it, and maybe they'll see me or somebody else they know on the news again and they'll, you know the second time they'll think “Geez, he's doing that again, what's up with this gay rights bill why is this so important?” I mean you know, people learn in so many different ways and become aware of issues, concerns of other groups in so many different ways. And that could be a way. So I just never, I'm definitely not about pushing a message onto somebody... I'm not about pushing a message on or at anybody, I don't really think... people would probably disagree with me and say “Well if you're at a demonstration, you're holding a sign, you're pushing a message at people.” Ok, but that's, that's more of a public forum where I have a right to do that and they have a right to hold a sign that says the opposite message if they want to. I feel completely comfortable with that, I feel that's completely fair. I would not at all feel comfortable buttonholing somebody at work in the staff lounge and saying “Oh, so you saw me on the news, so well, what do you think about the civil rights, gay civil rights issue” or “what do you think about funding for more AIDS prevention, don't you think that's important?” I'd never do that, I mean, I think that's very counterproductive. And I think that, I don't think frankly that most people in ACT-UP or any of the other activist organizations I've worked for would either, that's not my approach.
[00:08:20]
BC: Was there umm, was there ever any discussion within ACT-UP of that very public face of the demonstrations? Of how, by nature participating in ACT-UP would kind of project yourself into the public sphere. Was there ever much worry about anonymity or...
TE: Sure, that's a good question. I'm trying to think if there was... overwhelmingly no, in my experience in ACT-UP. I'm trying to think if I'm forgetting anybody who wouldn't really have felt – I have a feeling that I'm forgetting somebody right here who wouldn't have felt quite so comfortable being so public. I'm going to say that there may have been one or two people who weren't quite so comfortable I just can't remember who they were right now. You know who would've felt comfortable working with us more behind the scenes but wouldn't have felt comfortable being in the public eye. And I completely respect that, I think that it's really important for a movement to respect what people feel comfortable in giving to it and not saying, “Well you're not a real member unless you're willing to read this preprepared statement if somebody sticks a microphone in your face, or get your pictures taken.” It was very much... my impression was that it was very much, there was very much room for that in ACT-UP. Nobody said, “well where were you at the demonstration, I didn't see you. Please explain your absence.” Several of us one time went to, and this is primarily an ACT-UP thing, went to a little I dunno if it was even a fundraiser it was like a little a very little rally that the conservative republican candidate Patrick Buchanan had. He made this little, I think it was a little stop over in a Rhode Island I dunno that it was much more than that, at a hotel near the airport. So several of us went out to confront him about his homophobia and his AIDS phobia, and I dunno if Duncan [Smith] or Bill [Jesdale] told you this story, well Bill wasn't there Duncan was there and a couple of other people and I, it was just four of us.
[00:10:38]
TE: And I can remember some people in ACT-UP thinking, “I'm not sure that action is especially productive, what are you going to accomplish with that?” But there was still room... maybe this is an opposite kind of example you know of people not saying “I'm not sure” “where were these other people that don't want to be so publicly identified where were they at the demonstration?” Maybe this is an example of some people saying “Gosh, are you guys just being confrontational just for the sake of being confrontational.” And I dont' know that that's completely different from what ACT-UP itself did on occasion. There was some anger there, and there was certainly some anger within ACT-UP about certain officials. And sometimes we would just get pissed off and have a demonstration, and I think that's very healthy. But so several of us went out to confront Patrick Buchanan, and we got a few words in but actually Patrick, it was funny, a lot of the wind was taken out of our sails and everyone else's sails by these several Orthodox Jews who stood up at some point in Patrick Buchanan's canned speech. Apparently Patrick Buchanan had made some antisemitic remarks, or remarks they interpreted as being antisemitic, and they were royally pissed off. And they were there and they just stood up, and they were seated about three rows back and it was not a huge room so they basically blocked a lot of what was going on. And they just confronted him about this. And I think, I can't remember if they held up signs blocking view even further, they might've done that. But we felt sort of at that point like, ok, we've raised our issue they feel really pissed off let's let them do their thing. Most of the people who were there were umm, you know, in support of Patrick Buchanan. So it was a sort of interesting dynamic. But umm... some of us you know certainly felt quite comfortable, and that wasn't by the way an official ACT-UP demonstration, that was more some people in ACT-UP who feel strongly about AIDS and other issues going to Patrick Buchana and letting him know that. So...
[00:13:00]
BC: Did those sort of non-official demonstrations happen often?
TE: My impression is that they did not. My impression is that if people wanted to demonstrate... the other demonstrations I can think of were more spearheaded by other groups, for example demonstrations around the Civil Rights bill would have been Rhode Island Project – I mean Rhode Island Alliance for Lesbian and Gay Civil Rights or just as we called it, the Alliance. They would have spearheaded that. Of course the crossover of people would've been great. I mean a lot of us would've been there, Peter Cohen would've been there, there's just no question a lot of us would've been there. And we had, we had a really good friend who - I think he was working at the project at that time, but the community, the queer community in Rhode Island was small enough that you knew a lot of people who were you know, so and so's more active, Julie Pell's more active in the Alliance, maybe Peter Cohen's more active in ACT-UP, this person maybe David Abbott is working for Rhode Island Project Aids... David Abbot who is a good friend of mine and Bill's, and is again, is one of those like hardcore gold star activists. Umm, he may have already been working for Rhode Island Project Aids. But umm, we knew, he was one of the people that we could, would talk very frankly about some other people there and say “Oh god he's just, what can I say, I just work here, I'm sorry.” So it wasn't like there was no communication, I think a lot of communication happened informally and even more so among as I said before people who would go meet Paul Loberti, head of the Department of Health, and people from the Project would be there. I'm sure Peter Cohen talked to these people a lot in an informal way a lot, even if he came back holding his head in both hands to the next ACT-UP meeting and saying “Oh my god Paul Loberti still doesn't get why we need anonymous testing.” You know there would've been a lot of informal exchanges. Rhode island is just too small to have it any other way. And ditto with the Alliance.
[00:15:18]
BC: Was there ever any trouble with like... with certain protesters acting on their own during a demonstration in an unplanned manner, or were there ever issues in terms of some of the membership not wanting necessarily to associate ACT-UP with a certain cause that other members would want to spearhead?
TE: Umm, I'm trying to think. Of course I can only answer that as far as my memory goes, the limited number of demonstrations I went to... no, I don't recall anything happening at demonstrations that a certain group of people in ACT-UP would say “Oh my god they went to far, they shouldn't have done that.” And as far as fighting for other issues that certain people in ACT-UP thought that we shouldn't wade into... you know that's a really good question because I think, I.... let's see, how can I put this... I think that there was a sense, we'll start this way, there was a sense by some people for example Thayer Dietrich who was living with AIDS, that certain organizations -and I'm giving you my impression now, Thayer could tell you hers better than I could... my impression of Thayer, some of the things Thayer said was, and I can remember her saying this one time, I'm not sure it had to do with the Alliance in general specifically, but like with gay activists in general gay and queer activists in general...
[00:17:05]
TE: ...she said one time, and i haven't forgotten it and I think it was a good thing to say – somebody was talking about “Oh well we need to fight for the civil rights bill, we need to fight for this, we need to fight for laws all across the country prohibiting discrimination in employment based on sexual orientation”, or whatever else we were talking about, “we've got to defeat amendment two.” And I can remember Thayer in the context of a conversation somewhat like this I think, it must have been, saying something like, “Well have these activists ever heard of AIDS?” And I just thought, “Good for you Thayer. Good for you, thank you for reminding us.” Because it's just too easy if you're not dealing with it to say, “Yeah, gotta pass the civil rights bill and it'll guard against discrimination based on sexual orientation in employment housing public accommodations and credit. Great, ok! And we've got to make sure transgender people are in there. And then next on our agenda has to be this...” I mean that's how activists operate of course, but you know, we all do need to be reminded especially by people who are dealing with these issues, about hey don't forget this don't forget that – don't forget, if you're a bunch of white middle class gay men who, let's face it, you're pretty comfortable you know where you're gonna be sleeping that night and you know where your next meal is coming from, and you probably have a job or you're a graduate student and your funding is ok – don't forget that there are a lot of people dealing with real issues of poverty and not being able to afford their medications and all of that. And I found, I found it was especially good for me to hear that because not being involved so much in the medical side of it and thinking about this and how much this fancy new prescription (well I don't think they really had cocktails at that time) but you know this AZT costs... I didn't have to face it and think about, “my god, my friend Joe really can't afford it what's he gonna do? he could be out of his apartment at the end of the month, do I feel comfortable having him come and stay with me?” I mean I was never really confronted with that the way a lot of people were and still are.
[00:19:17]
TE: And so I really appreciated Thayer saying that. And so I don't recall people in ACT-UP saying, “No, we're fighting too much about this other thing” or “our energy's being sapped in this other direction, we need to focus on AIDS.” I think, this is my impression, I thought that the people who were really focused most strongly and clearly on work against AIDS kept their focus very well, and nothing prevented them from also being a member of the Alliance. I mean, my ex Marc Cohen became very involved with the alliance – I think he was vice president or was he president, I should remember that – very very involved in the alliance, worked with it for years and I couldn't tell you exactly when he stopped going to ACT-UP, but he was certainly completely supportive of what he did after he left. So there was plenty of room for also working for something else if you wanted to. My impression is that we didn't face that so much.
BC: Is there anything else you want to talk about at all?
TE: I don't, I can't think of anything. Your questions were really good, umm... I hope I haven't, I'm sure I've forgotten something... but your questions were really good, so I think I've been able to tell you a lot about my impressions of how the group worked and its goals. I was very impressed by Duncan and Bill carrying on into needle exchange and all of that for as long as they did. It was hard to maintain the sense of urgency after a certain point, and many of us were sort of sidetracked into other things. So I really respected them for doing that. Umm... but... yes, and all of the group really.
BC: Ok, well thank you very much.
TE: Thank you for your interview.
[00:21:32]
[end of interview]
[end of TAPE 2]