Witness states that he is 55 years old and resides in Arizona. He was living in Tucson at the time of the raid in 1871 and when notice came that the Indians had robbed Juan Elias of some cattle. A party of twelve men or less started from here and met a party with Tomas Elias who had been trailing the cattle. When we met Tomas, Juan Elias asked Tomas how many dead cattle he had found on the road and he replied that counting cows and steers they had killed 50 head. He heard what they said as he was standing near them. They then followed the Indians as far as where the foot hills go into the valley of the San Pedro. He knew they were Indians because they recaptured one of the horses, and the Indians took the other 4 horses on. They had a fight and one of the Indians was killed. He saw the Indian and took his scalp; and a Mr. Zeckendorf sent it to Washington. The Indian scalped was an Apache the same as all the others. He saw one dead animal and more that they recaptured and Juan Elias took them to his ranch. This was in April, 1871. The cattle driven off were steers, cows and oxen. In those days average milk cows were worth $50 and the other cattle from $30 up. Meat was worth 25 cents a pound and more. He knew they were Juan Elias cattle by the ear-mark and brand. This occurred in Pima County, Arizona. Has no interest direct or indirect.

He is not related to Juan Elias. He has a claim against the Government for Indian depredation. The Indians stole the cattle at night and notice was received here in Tucson the next day at 11 o' clock. He lived in Tucson at that time but had never worked for Juan Elias. He was engaged in making adobes and planting. The ear-marks on Juan Elias' cattle was a fork on one side and the top cropped off--what they call a feather ear-mark. It was the left ear. The cattle were steers, cows and oxen. They brought back seven head--one ox. He did not see the dead cattle but heard Tomas explain it. He was familiar with the value of cattle at that time. According to their class and condition two-year old steers were worth $25--$30 and more. A fat ox was worth $100. He knew because he had purchased and raised oxen. He paid $500 for four yoke of oxen and a wagon from the Rio Grande. The cattle that Elias lost were raised in this country. He did know why he scalped the Indian. Was not mad when he did it. Zeckendorf wanted the scalp. And Juan Elias was there and didn't say anything. They were all standing close around the dead Indian when he scalped him. Zeckendorf was there. Didn't know why Zeckendorf didn't do it instead of witness. He is a Mexican and citizen of the U.S. Is not a neighbor of Juan Elias and lives on the San Pedro river, and came 40 or 45 miles to testify.

He filed a claim for property taken by the Indians about 3 days ago. Mr. Martin, the claimant's counsel has it,--the papers are completed. Had not signed the papers yet. He has put his claim into Mr. Martin's hands with request to prepare the proper papers and file it.

Witness swore that he was 64 years old, resides here at St. Xavier and knows Juan Elias. The Indians stole two head of steers from Juan Elias in April, 1863 out here at St. Xavier. He was there at the time. It occurred in the night time and was discovered immediately afterwards. The Vaqueros went out and discovered the trail. Early next morning they started out on the trail of the Indians, but did not see the Indians. He was along. They got so close that they caught up with the six Indians that were the rear guard. They were Apaches. They had a fight and the Indians shot Cornelio Elias, brother of Juan, in the head (scalp). The Indians took 100 head of steers belonging to Juan Elias. He calculated by the trail left and the way they rounded the cattle up. Juan Elias had purchased a large band of cattle from California. They followed the Indians about 30 leagues, the other side of the San Pedro, near the Agua Caliente. We returned with the man that had been shot, and some of the cattle.

Was present at another raid about the last days of April, After coming back with the wounded man. Afterwards a scouting party started. They went after that band up the Arivaipa, and found forty head of the cattle stolen before: They ate some and distributed some around among the people and when they returned to Tucson they had 15 of 20 left, and they were distributed around amongst the volunteers. He didn't know whether they were distributed by the commanding officer or by Juan Elias. The cattle recovered belonged to Juan Elias, he knew them by the brand and ear-marks. This raid occurred in Pima County, Arizona. Cattle were dear in those days and such cattle as these at the time they were stolen were worth $30, $35, $40, $45, up to $50.. He has no interest in the claim.

Is not related to the claimant and has no claim of his own against the Government or the Indians, nor has any relative any such claims that he knows of. Was born and raised at Saint Xavier where these cattle were taken. Didn't know exactly how many cattle Juan Elias had there at that time, but he was a cattle man and had a great many. A herd, some two-year olds and some older. Did not know how many of the cattle were two-year olds. It was a large herd--some 800 or 900. No cows taken at that time. Thinks $35 would be a fair average price. They would be worth more than less. Didn't say in his direct examination from $30 up. Said some $30, some $40, and some $50. His idea is $30. he thinks as the value of them. Is a Mexican.

The Indians had no provocation to make this raid that he knew of--only their inclination to rob and steal. They only went out to look for them, not to have any trouble. Is sure the man there never did anything to provoke them. There were exactly 40 head of the cattle recovered. He counted them.

Is 46 years old, resides on the San Pedro river, and has known Juan Elias since he (witness) was born and raised here. Knows about the Indian raid in November 1861; was at the ranch called the Punta de Agua, the other side of San Xavier, in Pima County, Arizona. He was there the night before and the Indians attacked about sunrise in the morning. Took his breakfast early that morning and crossed the river. Seeing the Indians had made an attack there he went towards San Xavier. Was looking for some of his own horses and not finding them continued on afoot. The Indians having taken the road to San Xavier (heard the barking of dogs and knew the Indians were ahead of him) he went to the riverside in the brush in the foot-hills. Then continued his journey to San Xavier, was tired and crawled in under cover. The Indians stole and carried off all the stock and horses around the ranches there and killed the wife of this man (a Mexican present) Venturo Carriel. They took cattle and horses--mares belonging to Juan Elias but can't swear exactly the amount they took, because they took cattle belonging to everybody around there. Cannot approximate the number. Don't know how many they left. They took a great deal of property but don't know amounts. Cattle were worth at that time from $35 up as high as $50, according to their class. Knew the kind of mares Juan Elias had at that time, they were worth from $35 to $40. Knew the kind of saddle horses he had at the time; had seen them ridden and some were worth less than $40 and some were worth $50 or $60. People started from San Xavier and Tucson at that time to see if they could re-capture the cattle and things the Indians had taken. He did not go with them, but knows that they got some of the stock back. He calculated by the ruins left behind them that there was from 200 upwards. He meant by ruins the amount of trail left behind them in travelling over high and bushy grounds. He knew the different tribes of Indians in this vicinity. They were a distinct class. They were White Mountain, Cairicahua, Parial and Arivaipa Indians. To make an attack of that kind it was necessary for different bands to join together; they were Indians known as Apaches. The Apaches were raiding this country at that time. No Indians were killed in this raid. Has no interest in this claim. The people of that vicinity had given no cause for provocation.

Not related to the claimant and has no claim of his own depredations. This raid as in November, 1861. Does not remember very well how old he was at the time. Does not remember how many years it was. Can be told by the dates. Hasn't much knowledge how to make the calculation. Was not married at the time. Had formerly lived right at the Juan Elias ranch. Lived there 4 years and moved. The depredation was shortly after he moved. The attack was recently made after he was away from there. It was not more than 15 days after. He was living near the ranch of Juan Elias, at the place called Punta de Agua. Two miles or 2 1/2. States of his own knowledge that Juan Elias had mares, horses and cattle at the time of the depredation. Estimates that he had 50 to 60 mares at the time,--not positive as to the amount. They were fairly good mares raised in this country and others that were better. Couldn't state the breed. They were native mares of this country. There wasn't many of a different class at that time: one or two or a few better mares. They were used for breed mares or any work they could be utilized for. Never saw them used in harness or under the saddle. Did not know the average age. Thinks $35 a head would be the fair market value for that herd of mares as they were scarce in those days. Knows the claimant had some very good horses of this country at that time. Didn't know how many horses he owned by actual count--had seen them in a band and what class they were. $40 a head might be the value of some of them, but others were very good horses and worth considerably more. Looked at them sufficiently to know that some were worth over $40. Couldn't very well fix a price on them. The cattle were of this country--and all kinds, steers, cows and work-oxen. By calculation thinks he had not less than 200 or 300 head. Don't know what proportion were work-oxen. There were stock-cattle--all kinds--steers, heifers, cows and oxen. 2 years old heifers were worth about $20 or $25. Oxen $50, depending of course on quality and size,--some worth less and some not. Average milk cow was worth $35 to $50. A good selected milk cow would be worth $50; $25. to $30 if she was a good milk cow. Knew the value of stock in those days because he saw them purchased. His business was farming and planting and taking care of cattle. Was not engaged in buying or selling cattle, but would see parties sell an oxen or a cow. Did not see the Indians at the moment they took the cattle but saw them driving the cattle off in different directions after they had stolen them. If not mistaken it was perhaps a mile and a half or 2 miles from where claimants stock was kept to where he laid down in the bushes. The Indians took another direction. Saw the cattle when the Indians came and took them off--was in the house, when they came--in the house of Don Santiago, don't remember his name; also at the house of the big Dutchman Frederick (meansFritz Contzen); also at the house of a man named Johnson. Was in the immediate vicinity at the time the cattle were stolen and ran towards San Xavier. Impossible to be in the 3 houses. Was so close to the Indians at the time they came, that he ran and was afraid they would kill him. Thinks there were several different bands that drove away these cattle. There were Chiricahaas, White Mountain Indians from Sierra Blanco, Pimas and Arivaipas. The difference in appearance between the White Mountain and Chiricahass is that we know them. There is a difference in the class of them. Was able to tell by the quantity of them in that bands. A band of that quality to raid could not belong to any one band. If there was not members of 4 different bands there couldn't be that many together. Don't know how many Indians were in the Arivaipa tribe at that time--never lived with them--didn't know much about them. Knew there were such Indians and that they joined with other Indians when they raided. Did not go with the pursuing party. Never saw any of this stock afterwards. Knows Juan Elias or his men gave no cause or provocation for the raid. So far as he knows no cause was given; would not like to swear what was or was not done when he was not present. He is a Mexican by birth and so was Juan Elias.

Work oxen if good were worth $50. a head. The night before the raid he stopped at the house of Johnson and two or three others living around there, and was in one when the Indians attacked. Santiago, the Dutchman and Johnson lived in the same neighborhood. Is a citizen of the U.S.

Is 72 years old, resides in Tucson, and has known Juan Elias since he was a child. Knows that the Indians took all his cattle and horses in a raid in November 1861. The Indians came and made an attack on all the ranches--Elias cattle--all of his stock--was out in the bush. They all came at once but on account of the brush and timber he couldn't say how many of them. There was a great many, and not only stole Elias' cattle but stole cattle from other ranches and took them away. All the people they could round up started in pursuit from San Xavier and the ranches. They followed the Indians, running them, and the Indians would separate; and some would follow up one crowd and some another, and they never caught up with them. He followed with Cornelio Elias, a brother of Juan's. Cornelio is dead. Never caught up with them and had no fight. One woman his (witness) wife and two Indian were killed. Saw them after they were dead. They were Apaches. Can't say how many were raiding exactly, but maybe 200 or 300. They took milk-cows, steers, calves, oxen, mares and horses from Juan Elias. He had been living there at that time about 6 years and was working for Juan Elias herding cattle and looking out for his cows. At that time Elias had about 75 head of cattle, 25 mares and 10 horses. They took all that was out in the pasture or brush. He had turned them all out and gone to look for the horses. The Indians took everything, saddle horses at that time were worth $40 to $50. There were horses there that were worth $100. Mares at the time were worth $25--$30. Oxen and beef cattle not less than $50 each. Average cows would be worth $50 and up. Fixes the value of cows at that time because he had bought and seen them bought. Saw Juan Elias buy cows--these cattle that was stolen. Have seen him pay for wild cows, not very good $40. No interest in this claim and no relation to the claimant. Knows the various tribes of Indians in this country by the Chiefs of the bands. In committing this raid he figures there were Indians called the San Carlos, and the Arivaipa, and part of them Cochise's Indians and some of then Captain Chiquito's Indians too. He had no trouble with the Indians and gave them no cause for the raid.

He has a claim for Indian depredation committed at this time. Has testified within the last week in the case of Fritz Contzen for cattle lost at that time. Has testified in his own case, in the case of Gertrudes Herrerras and case of Francisco Gomez. Remember what he said in Contzen's case. Said they were Eskimizen's and other Indians. Thinks he stated they were Chiricahuas in that band. All the Indians out here of Eskimizens are the same--Arivaipa and White Mountain are the same. States now there were White Mountains, Chiricahaas and Pinals, because they all band together--some from one place and some from another. The only way you can dis-tinguish between them is by the chiefs. Did not see the Chiefs of those bands that day. The way he can tell was by their joining together. Elias had 75 head of cattle at that time. Any of the selected cattle were from $40 to $50. As an average--all kinds--they were worth $40 per head. Those two or three years old would be worth $30. Elias lost 25 mares at that time and they were worth from $30 to $40. Raised the value from what he stated in answer to Mr. Martin a few minutes ago, because some mares were worth $40 and $50 and higher. When he said the average value was from $25. to $30 in is direct-examination he probably made a mistake. Swears he made a mistake--Not apt to make mistakes when testifying. Now says it was $30 to $40 a head instead of $25 to $30. The lowest of the value of the horses would be $40 and from that upwards. Not able to tell how many of the horses were worth $40 a head, as he did not use the horses much and only used to see them. Probably 8 of them were worth more than $40. a head. Does not feel able to fix the value of these 8 horses, as he said, only the owner could fix their value--they were not his horses. He makes no mistakes this time. Of the 75 head of cattle 8 were oxen. The balance were steers and cows--is sure of that. Most of the cows were wild. As he said before had seen Elias pay $40 for wild cows, and never saw them bought for less in those days. Did not know that good ordinary cows were bought for $25 a head in those days. Witness is a Mexican.

He is 57 years old, resides here in Tucson and has known Juan Elias for 25 or 30 years. In 1867 was working for the Government at Camp Grant--on the 21 of May, 1867, 3 men came in this direction who had been working for Mr. Elias and with them an Indian who had been captured by the military, and they were attacked by the Indians. Witness was suspicious that this Indian had something to do with the killing of these men. The 3 men killed were Mexicans and were working for Juan Elias. After that they attacked us in the night, myself, Juan Elias with the other people at the ranch. They shot Juan Elias in the arm. They did not take anything the night Juan Elias was shot. When Elias was at the Fort hospital sick the Indians returned and attacked the ranch and took 5 yoke of cattle and 5 horses--this was about 10 o'clock in the day time. Witness was then fighting them at this time. We were working with the oxen in the field. The Indians got them by force by shooting with bows and arrows. There were about 26 Indians, Apaches. Know they were Apaches because they called all the Indians that killed people, Apaches. This was in Arizona; don't know the county, but thinks it was Pinal. One Mexican captive and an American were killed in that fight. He was working for Juan Elias at the time. The cattle were worth $100 a yoke. Knows that one of the 5 horses stolen was worth $150, because he saw him bought from Pancho Gomez. Didn't know whether he was a native horse or not but he was a good one. Could not put any price on the other 4 horses--only knows that horses were quite dear at that time. Those sort of horses were worth $45, $50, $55, $60, $65, $70, $75 and as high as $80. (Counsel for Dept. objected to this answer.) Has no interest in the claim. None of the men then gave any provocation, they were always afraid to do anything. They had no other reason than that it was their custom to rob and kill all their lives whenever they could.

Never saw the dead men that he thought the Indians had killed. Was working two or 3 miles from Camp Grant more or less, when those cattle were taken. Defended the cattle the best way he could by arms. When the attack was made we were working in the field with the cattle and he had just gone in the brush to get some poles. Is not certain but thinks there were six or seven of their party including himself, and had guns. The Indians never allow anyone to see them before attacking. The other men were working in a field there--a flat place. Jesus M. Elias had gone into the brush, as he started and the Captain was with them. He had out a pole and was sharpening it, with his rifle across his foot. About 13 or 14 yards from where he was a shot was fired and struck a companion with him in the breast and he dropped. Mr. Jesus M. Elias was about 30 yards away and the Indians rushed in between to head off Elias and himself. Elias ran into the brush and he (witness) ran out still fighting, and the men were still working the cattle in the field. The working men saw him when he ran out and they ran to where their guns were. The Indians had about 100 yards to go when they left cover to get the stock. The horses were loose in the field, where the oxen were. There were 26 Indians more or less. They were on foot and armed with bows and arrows and rifles. The men that were working the cattle with me shot at the Indians, but no Indians were killed. Knew they were Apaches because all of the Indians that killed people were so called. The Apaches did not have to stand all of the blame of all the killing because there are men that do killing who are criminals, and others are Apaches. There were no other Indians then but Apaches. He was not frightened but calm as now. Counted them for if he missed one, he would be lurking around and shoot somebody. He was in a circle of them. The oxen were such as are used in this country. Very few cattle in those days were other than Mexican. They were yoked by tying their horns. Knows the cattle were worth $100 a yoke because he (witness) had cattle rented under the condition that if stolen or killed by the Apaches he was to be paid at the rate of $100 a yoke. Had also seen them sold and the settlements being scarce they were all posted in the price. Fixes the value of the horses because he saw Juan Elias pay Pancho Gomez for them. Is not related to the claimant; has no interest in this claim; has no claim of his own against the government or Indians for depredations and thinks none of his relations have.

Is 65 years old and lives in Tucson. The claimant is his brother. Knows about a raid that occurred in April, 1868 out near Silver Lake in which some of Juan's cattle were taken. Was in here in Tucson at the time. The man in charge herding the cattle came to Tucson to inform us that the cattle had been stolen by the Apaches. Juan Elias and some others in Tucson started to follow the Indians. Witness was sick and didn't go. He went out to "cut the trail" and he calculated that there were 100 cattle more or less. Has had experience in trailing Indians and been employed by the Government in that capacity. Has been a guide at different times since 1865. Knows the value of cattle such as were taken at that time. Cattle then were worth not less than $40 from that upwards. Some of the cattle wee recovered.

The cattle my brother lost were the cattle of this country--raised here. Herd of cattle, cows, oxen, heifers and steers. Abut 35 or 40 head of small cattle were left in the corral and let out in the morning. The prices were well known here on account of the scarcity of cattle and the sales made to the troops. His brother Juan was well posted on the price of cattle and had charge of and handled the cattle on the ranch. Taking one with another the cattle would be worth not less than $40. Such a thing as the cattle as $25 being a fair market value per hand might be possible, according to the owner's value of them. He has no depredation claim.

Knows that a raid was committed on his brother in 1867, 3 miles north of Fort Grant, and at that time witness was then in the field. Before they stole these cattle they attacked him with his servants in the field. Three or four days before this he was at the Post as a guide and there was an Indian prisoner there; the commanding officer said to witness take this Indian down to the ranch, he wants to farm. After the Indian came to the ranch, three men were working there that wanted to come to Tucson and the Indian said to witness: "I want to go to Tucson to look around." Col. Ellis was informed of this and permission got to allow the Indian to go with three men to Tucson; but the Indian's family to remain at the ranch. The Indian started with the 3 men and on the 2nd or 3rd day he returned to the ranch and witness said to him "how is it that you didn't go on to Tucson with the other boys"? and he lied and said he didn't know what became of them; that he turned round and came back. Then a moment or so afterwards he said they were killed by the Apaches in the Canada del Oro. Witness had an interpreter. Witness went the same day and informed Colonel and he sent witness with a party of soldiers who were in charge of a corporal. We found the dead men in the Canada del Oro; buried them and returned to the Post. When he got back learned that his brother Juan was in the hospital having been shot by the Indians the same night witness left with the escort to bury the dead men. The Colonel said to witness: "You had better go to the ranch, your brother is very sick and you had better see after the men who are there and look out for things till he gets well." While there and as we were continuing the work the Indians attacked us. We were in the field when attacked, witness being close to the river. That time they took everything, oxen and horses and killed one of the men. The men and horses belonged to Juan. They took 5 horses and 5 oxen. The oxen were worth from $80 up, and the horses were worth not less than $75. One of the horses that witness had purchased for Juan cost $150. Witness saw the Indians at that time. Knew the Indians were Apaches as he had been travelling around for years and had fought with them days and days and at other times had been with officers talking with them and making peace for the Government. Knows to what band they belonged. Eskivinzinss band the Pinal Mountains and the Sierra Mescal,--Capt. Chiquito. The Indians have killed six of witness' family. Thinks they made this raid because they had been fighting his father and robbing his cattle and killing his people since he could remember. We gave no provocation for this raid and never did. Their only motive was to rob and get the best of us, and our motive was to follow them for when they came there and stole what we had and killed any of us, we were compelled to follow them to try to get the property that belonged to us. He knows something about the raid that occurred at the edge of the town in 1860. Juan was planting here in the fields with his oxen and when he quit work he sent a small brother with the oxen up on top of the hill to pasture them for the night. Early the next morning he was sent out early to get the cattle to go to work. He returned about 1/2 past 6 with the news that the Indians had taken them. We came to town and got 8 or 10 men and followed them north to a place called the Sierra del Salcito. We camped there and with four of the strongest horses, four of us continued to follow them and the balance remained in camp awaiting our return. It was impossible to follow further as they could not catch up. Knew they were Apaches by the trail, the ground travelled over, direction and everything. Tells from his experience with them from what part of the country they came from. They didn't use anything but moccasins, with that and according from what part of the country they came knew they were Apache Tontos. The cattle were all lost and not recovered. The cattle (six yokes) were worth about $70 a yoke. There was no provocation to occasion this raid. No motive.

If an Indian speaks to witness he understands and can judge more or less what tribe he belongs to; witness understands words of Apache, but does not mean to say he speaks the language. He can tell by the tracks, where, or not, it is an Apache track. There is a difference in the way they sole their moccasins and the manner of making. There is no other Indian that uses the same class of moccasin, or that can make the style that an Apache does. They make a slim narrow moccasin and draw it up at the toe to a fine point, with a toe-piece that turns up. They have a heel piece, what we would call a 1/2 sole.,--not full but a piece. Sometimes they put an extra piece on the sole and heel. This is when the soles wear out and they don't have an opportunity to put on new soles. The ex-tra piece is where the soles wear out most. Some Indians put these extra pieces in before the moccasin is worn. If a band of Apaches has new moccasins without the toe-pieces, witness could tell them even if barefooted. The Chinchuas live in the northern portion of the country and the Sierra Blancos in the opposite direction and there is a great difference in their language. Tells them apart by the manner of pronouncing and different dialect. Witness knows Eskimizen. Couldn't tell whether he was there during the fighting but distinguished some of his band. They were not all of his band. Knew some of them were his band because witness afterwards talked with some of them many times and they said they were the same fellows that were in that attack. Knows because he saw them, talked with them afterwards and told him so, They always hollered and shouted that they were brave and could lick Frenchmen, Americans, Mexicans and everybody. They didn't lie then. They always lied when making a treaty of peace. These 5 yoke of oxen I judge were worth not less than $70 per yoke.

Is 45 years old, lives in Tucson, and knows Juan Elias who is his brother. In November 1861 about sunrise the Indians attacked the Punta de Agua. The ranch of Juan was a mile this side of the Punta. They first attacked the Punta and then continued the attack on up towards the other ranches. Five mounted Indians arrived at the house. There was a woman about 100 yards from the house and one of the Indians killed her with a lance. The Indians then passed on and turned round and drove off the cattle. Then people there from San Xavier and vicinity started out to follow them. The Indians built breastworks and the other Indians continued to drive away the stock. About 25 or 30 of us got together in a body and they ran from the breastworks. This party stopped once in a while and showed fight while the others drove away the stock. When the assistance that had been sent for arrived from Tucson the Indians had got a long distance away with the cattle and we never saw them again. We followed them close up to those mountains out there, and 30 or 40 men could not do anything with so many Indians. It was 10 or 15 miles they followed. At the time witness was looking and working around. The only killed was two Indians besides the woman. He saw the two Indians that were killed and they belonged to the Apaches. They took cattle, horses and mares from Juan Elias in that raid,--10 horses, 30 mares and 75 heads of cattle. This was not all the stock that Juan had at that time. He had others on the ranch. The cattle stolen at that time were taken out of the corral that morning. Knew there were 30 mares for he saw and counted them. The mares were not taken out of the corral. The mares had been rounded up and put in the corral during the day and turned out that night. They were rounded up to select some new saddle horses and after finishing the selection the rest were turned out late at night. Juan had come to Tucson, on some business. The saddle horses worth $100, and $60, $50, and $40. In those days brood-mares were scarce and those taken were worth from $30. to $40. The cattle taken at that time were worth from $30 up,--$40, $50 and some $60. a good cow in those days was worth $50, a native cow. In those days there was no blooded cows in this country and the class they had were worth $50. There was no provocation for this raid by the settlers whatever. It was their custom to come here and raid and steal whenever they could. He is acquainted with the different tribes in S Arizona. These were Apaches. Has no interest in this claim and is a citizen of the U.S. This raid occurred in Pima County, Arizona.

Has no claim against the Government for depredations. The Indians killed that morning were killed at Punta de Agua knows where Fritz Contzen lived at that time, it was about a mile and 1/2 from Juan's. Juan's was about 1/2 way between the Mission and Punta de Agua. One of the Indians was killed about 100 yards from Fritz's house, and the other out in the valley 2 or 3 miles. Witness did not see either of the Indians killed, but did see Mrs. Curriel killed being there. We were on a hill top, about 100 yards from them looking at the Indians. Curriel was not at home at the time having gone out to look after some horses. When he heard the shot he ran back to the ranch, but the woman was dead when he got back. There were lots of Indians all round there fighting and when we came back, don't know whether he went to Fritz's house or to our house. People were badly scared there. The man had turned Juan's cattle out in the morning early. We had counted the cattle in the evening before and saw the cattle that were in the corral and he (Juan) came into Tucson on business, and in the morning before Curriel started to hunt the horses, he turned out his stock. The stock of his brother's that was not taken that time was more distance off. The Indians may have taken some that were on the ranch, but the cattle that were turned out of the corral in the morning they took altogether. Witness was 12 years old at the time, or 13. Had knowledge of the value of stock at that time. It was usual for boys of that age to know the value of stock at that time and to look out for and handle stock on the ranges. Witness had no stock of his own then and his brother Juan got his stock here. Witness knows how much he (Juan) paid for the cattle lost. Juan raised the oxen. He bought 10 cows and raised others--he bought and sold. Those that were stolen, some were bought and some raised there. The horses lost were native horses of this country. There were 2 carriage horses (sorrels) that he bought for $100 each. They were large carriage horses and he saw them bought. The balance were native horses raised in this country worth not less than $40 a head, and up to $50, $60 and $80. In those days a man had a good thing in a horse. Horses were worth a good deal and had to be kept up and fed because the Indians would steal them if not kept up. He does not swear that those 10 horses were worth more than $60 a head on an average--some were worth more and some less. The average value of the mares was from $30 up. Some of the mares were worth more than $30 and some less. Doesn't think there was one worth less than $30. The cattle were worth on the average from $25 to $30. He can swear that none of the inhabitants of that section had given provocation in the Indians to make the attack. It was the custom to know what person in that vicinity were doing. Don't think anybody gave them any reason at all. It is witness' opinion and it is true that they never did. Those Indians were all the time on the war path--always the same--would leave the reservation and come down and steal. They were always fighting the U.S. ever since he knew up to the last 3 years. The people of that community apprehended a hostile raid at anytime. When the Indians stole the stock we would follow them as far as we could. There were so many and we so few that we could do nothing. Some of the Indians stopped to fight us and the others drove off the stock. They would come quick and steal everything and run away and then we would follow them. They never gave notice when they were going to come. No guard out to keep them off. Witness only went as far as the Punta after those Indians--a mile and 1/2 from the ranch. These were Apaches; they were all the same only designated by different captains of bands. The language was the same and they were virtually the same Indians, under different leaders. Did not know of the Jicarilla and Gila Apaches bands. The Apaches are the same people, the same language only designated by the different ranchevea's where they live and the different leaders they are under. Can swear they were different bands of Apaches, because there were a great many, and to hear them talk and holler and shout, the language was all the same. There were over 200 in the company by the trail they left,--from 200 up, a little more or less. There were Indians to do the fighting and others to drive the cattle off. The raid was early in the morning. When the Indians left that we were fighting, those that had stolen the cattle were away off could tell that by the dust, etc.

We were accustomed to guard cattle--we corralled them and night and turned them loose in the morning, and the reason the Indians got that large band of cattle was that we turned them loose in the morning and they were all together. It was customary to look after cattle and guard them. At the raid in 1871 the Indians stole the cattle in the night--the Apaches. Knew they were Apaches by the trail and the direction they took. At this time witness rounded them up in the evening and in the morning he went out to cut tracks to see if any of them had left. Always about daybreak in handling cattle you ride round to see how they are getting on and that was the time he struck the trail of the Indians that stole them, and he got a fellow to go with him and follow them; also sent a man to Tucson to notify them and to tell Juan Elias of the robbery and to meet witness the other side of Tongue Verde because he knew where they were going. Followed them near to the San Pedro river and caught up with them. Saw 5 Indians horseback--Apaches,--Arivaipas. Got 7 of the cattle back. He counted 50 head of dead cattle and then there was the 7 recovered. Saw the dead cattle on the trail before reaching the mountains. The Indians lanced the cattle--fifty. They were valued at $30 to $35. Knows they drove off that number because he saw them--counted the dead ones. Was working on the ranch when this raid was made. No provocation was given the Indians to make that raid. As a precaution used to round them up in the evening and put them in a place to graze and feed during a night. The raid was at Punta de Agua, Pima County, Arizona. In 1860 about 6 in the evening Juan told him to take the cattle out to the pasture at the edge of the little foothills. The field was at the foot of the hill, and they took the cattle on the little elevation above. The next morning when he went out found the trail of the Indians; saw where they had taken the cattle; and followed about 100 yards to see the direction they drove. They were Juan Elias cattle. Witness did not follow at that time--Juan did. Oxen were worth at that time $100. No provocation was given to make that raid which was in Pima County, Arizona; may be a mile or a or a mile and 1/2 from Tucson; at the foot of the hill at the Novitiate. The house and field are there yet.

Not certain whether he testified about the raid of 1860 yesterday. In the raid of 1871 it was about 30 miles from where they commenced killing the cattle to where he found the last one--didn't measure and not positive. Is sure he counted right. The cattle consisted of cows, big and little steers. The 7 we brought back were found at the fight when we attacked the Indians. We were following them closely on their trail and they kept killing these cattle. They slowed up and we caught up so close that they abandoned these 7 head. We were fighting them at the time we got the cattle back. Did not see the 6 oxen that were taken in December out here. Had seen them before, they were native cattle of this country. They were different ages. Some 8 and 10 years old. They were ordinary cattle, but worth more in those days than fine cattle are now. They were work cattle and tame, and you could handle them the same as a horse.

Is 54 years old and resides in Tucson, Pima County, Arizona, and is the claimant in this case. In November, 1871, he was in Tucson and about 7 or 8 o'clock in the morning a messenger notified him of the raid. Then commenced seeing and talking to different people in Tucson. He got a party together to go out in the vicinity of San Xavier. When he got out there in the valley the Indians had all gone and the fighting at the Punta del Agua all over. Went out in the party and cut tracks, himself and brother; and then returned to San Xavier. Found there in the valley, the dead Indian and saw the woman that had been killed. Saw two Indians and heard that one was a chief from the White Mountains. They were Apaches. Witness did not follow the Indians. When he arrived at San Xavier the Indians were a long way off--only saw the two dead Indians. The trail was going in different directions. It was impossible to count the trails. They divided in different parties. Some in the direction of Tongue Verde and some in the direction of Cienaga; some in the direction of Rinca and some Senta Ritas. The Indians who remained to fight took the main road towards the Ritas--those were the fellows that took his horses. Was at the ranch the night before and had the horses and mares in a corral--was riding a bronze colt at sundown. There were many cattle in the corral because the cows were milking. He had about 200 or 250 head of cattle on the range and in the morning the cows would be turned out after milking. The Indians after making the first attack in the Punta, coming down it was very brushy and full of timber, so they took all the cattle they could get their hands on. There were about 30 or 35 mares in the corral that night and some horses on the outside. There were only 6 horses of his in the corral that night, but there were others out on the range. They took the horses and went in the direction of the public highways and picked up any other horses they could find. The mares they took were all inside and some of the horses were on the outside that they took. Knows they took 10 saddle horses of his because he was short that many after he counted them. Knows they took 30 mares because he was short that many. The cattle were here and afterwards when he counted them he was short 75 head. Knows how many mares, horses and cattle he ought to have had and after the raid he was short that many. He never got any of that stock back. The Indians had no provocation to make that raid--it was a sort of civil war between them and the Indians. There were a pair of carriage horses that cost $200 and there were saddle horses that were very scarce in those days. No horse could be bought for less than $40, from that up to $50, $60, $70, and $80. His own saddle horse was taken and that of his brother Tomas. He places the average of those horses at $60. The brood mares were worth to him then not less than $30 or $35. There were no horses here in the country except what he had. Horse herds were few in that the different Posts around there had been taken away and beef was scarce and 25 cents a pound at that time, he had paid 37 1/2 cents a pound in those days. Money was scarce and greenback cheap. Puts the average price of those cattle at $25, one with another. Has sold 2 year-olds from $30 to $35 at Sonora. He is a citizen of the United States. This occurred in Pima County, Territory of Arizona.

Is a Mexican by birth. At the time of his birth he and his parents were citizens of Old Mexico. Had been in business for himself since 1856--before that was working for his father. Was 18 years old when he went into business for himself,--planting corn, beans, wheat and barley. Followed that business, with raising cattle, up to the time of the raid, was born in 1838. Was about 23 years old at the time of the raid. Was successful in business and always worked hard. The cattle on the outside may have been 300, or 600, 800, or 1000 yards away from the corral. Couldn't tell whether cattle outside of the corral that morning. Was short that many and knew exactly how many cattle he had. Rounded up and counted the cattle every day to put them in the corrals. Did not leave any outside for if they did they would likely be gone in the morning. The cattle were not all put in the corral that evening because one man Venture Curroel, a herder, looked out for those on the range. Everyone that was missed concluded that the Indians had stolen. They took them within sight and were looking at them from the town of San Xavier: Papagos, Mexicans and Americans all saw them. Does not know that some of those stock was lost and not taken by the Indians. There were no cattle thieves in the country except the Indians. It was seldom you lost a cow or calf. The Papagos might kill one for beef but it was rare. There were 6 horses in the corral that night and the balance outside. Can't say how far from the corral. They had been grazing all around in the brush up at Punta de Agua. As the Indians were scattered in the vicinity they might have picked the horses up anywhere. The horses, cattle and mares were counted 2 or 3 days before the raid. If he was not there his brother. That day witness himself rounded up the greater portion of them. The soldiers had been taken away in 1860 many of them left. Beef was furnished the soldiers and government by contract. A contractor then by the name of Grant purchased from Pete Kitchen out on the Conoa. Cattle for Fort Crittenden were bought in the Conoyta Valley. After the soldiers left beef was scarcer because the town had to live on beef. All the people from Sonoita, Calabassas and Canoa as soon as the troops left drove their cattle to California, as they were afraid on account of their being no troops. Never saw Goldtree, but knew Shibells the recorder, and he did not know that he had a ranch there. Cattle were not driven from the Swaryta Valley, but from down to Yuma and the One hundred Texas soldiers (we called them rebels) came here and remained, and in May, 1862 the troops from California came and the Indians were robbing and stealing everything they could. The Texas and California troops made beef scarce--Was not at the battle of Valverde. The Texans were here before that battle. He was not at Valverde but here looking after the fellows that came. There was 100 Texas confederate soldiers here at that time, about 3 or 4 months after he lost his cattle. The Texans came in February 1862 and remained during February, March and April. Was naturalized and is a native of the country. Under the Treaty of Mesilla of 1863 (1853). That is the way he is a citizen. Was naturalized no other way. It is the Treaty of Mesilla of Feb'y 4, 1853--he has it at his house. The way he can testify to how many cattle he lost is that he missed and was short so many head. He missed 10 horses and 30 mares. Has never received any compensation from any source for any of that stock. Has not sold or assigned any part of this claim to any person. The Indians and inhabitants were in civil war all the time since witness was born, and it was going on when he was born. For several years the Indians had been on the war path--They attacked Tucson, Xavier, and Punta twice. The whites made raids on the Apaches lots of times. He remembers when a party of Tucson folks and Papago Indians went up to Camp Grant on the San Carlos reservation and butchered about 80 Apaches. Witness was not there. Jesus Maria was one of the Captains--this was in 1871. Witness was not out in any of those campaigns, but heard of two or three fights in the Chisienua Mountains. In 1859 witness was with Captain Yule on the other side of the Pinal Mountains.

The Apaches were instigators of these quarrels. Was born in Tubac, County of Pima, Territory of Arizona up the Santa Cruz River. Was born in 1838. Since that time has lived in Tucson.

Knows of his own knowledge that when the whites had these contests with the Indians, the Indians were the aggressors. One time witness was there but not the others. Was present May 7, 1863 in Araivaipa Canyon. The Apaches were the aggressors when witness was present. Can answer when he was not present,--because they (Apaches) were about fighting the Papagos, Mexicans and Americans and were stealing from all of them. Any battles he was not present he does not swear to. Before he lost these cattle he was not present at any contest between the whites and Apaches. In February, 1859 they took cattle from Guillermo Etillas and witness with 8 or 10 men followed and killed 2 of them. That was not the first time (1863) he was present at a contest. There were other times before that. Cannot remember how many times before that he had fights with the Indians. Don't know that he had something of a reputation for fighting Indians. The Apaches knew that he was fighting and scalping them,--every chance he had. Cannot understand the English language.

The raid in February, 1863, was no fighting, the Indians (Apaches) just came and stole some cattle. He followed them about a mile the other side of the San Pedro river in the direction of Araivipa; in the night time. He was first discovered by two herders who out the tracks in the direction of the Tongue Verde. He followed them at that time but never got up with them. Knew it was Indians because they followed them to the Araivaipa Canyon--to the mountains there. It was generally understood and known that it was Indians--it frequently happened. We found ten camp fires where they camped. He was at San Xavier and left with 5 or 6 men to follow the trail, and sent word to his father and brothers, and they gathered together 6 or 7 men at Tucson and met witness outside in front of what is now Fort Lowell. There were with him some Papagos, the Chief at San Xavier. All of that party are dead except witness. The Indians took from him at that time 175 head of cattle. As they were driving away the cattle they were killing them. Witness had purchased during the months of January and February, 1862 part of a herd of cattle from California, from Francisco Vegar, and all of those cattle, steers and cows were out on the range at San Xavier. He estimates the number of cattle taken by the trail they left--from the camp where they camped, and from rounding up the cattle. At that time he had more than 400 cattle of those he purchased from Los Angeles. It was during the war and cattle were very high priced. They were worth per head from $25 up--they were worth $35 a head (looking at the petition.) He was at the San Xavier Mission at the time of the raid, and was living there in the Town of San Xavier. The ranch had been depopulated on account of the Indians raids; and the ranchers in that vicinity all moved in. He never got any of those cattle back again. He nor any of the men in that vicinity did not give any provocation or cause for that raid.

I estimate there wasn't less than 175 or maybe 180 head driven off. He is a cattle-man and accustomed to the range. 150 head might leave the same trail--the trail was over 40 yards in width. It would be impossible to count the tracks--but he makes the estimate of his experience. He first answered that they were worth $25 without giving it proper thought--then refreshed his memory by the petition. The cattle were all big and a great many steers--cows and steers were California cattle. There were no heifers and no calves--large cows and steers and none worth less than $25 a head. Is sure there were no cows with them. There could not be any of these cattle worth only $25 a head; they were all worth more. Beef cattle was scarce and beef dear--Meat was sold then at 25, 30 and 35 cents and 3 bits a pound. He says the cattle were worth more than $25. a head. They were all worth more. When he spoke of $25 and up, maybe $30 or $35, or more. Can read and write in Spanish. In 1888 he made an affidavit to the petition before Notary Public in Pima County, Arizona. A copy of this petition was sent from Washington. (The petition was translated to him). He signed such an affidavit. The oath was translated to him. He swore to it before Billy Read--it was a transfer to Mrs. Strauss. A document transferring or giving to Mrs. Strauss a power on account of her husband's death was read and translated to witness. Has a translation of this present document in Spanish. The petition was not read then being in Washington. He knows what the contents of the petition is. He could sign it because he well knew what he had given to Mrs. Strauss. The mistake about the steers (four year olds) was that the people that copied it made a mistake in the letters. Here it is in Spanish (producing a paper from his pocket). He knew from this last mentioned paper that it states only steers were lost. He knew what the printed copy stated as to the value of the cattle when he referred to it. It was a wrong explanation by the man who wrote it, that there were 4 year old steers and no cows. He can tell something about the petition in English, he having a copy in English, he having a copy in Spanish. (The Spanish copy was handed to the U.S. Consul). There is nothing about cows in the item 175. Got the copy about a week ago, it was written by Carlos Tully, the Principal of Tucson Public Schools. Witness can read it. There is nothing about power of attorney in it. Mrs. Strauss name does not appear in the petition--it was in April when he gave her the power after Strauss' death. Has had that copy for a week and this one (printed) since May. He made a mistake when he looked at the printed instead of the Spanish copy. When he referred to the price of the cattle he had it in his hand and did not care to take the Spanish copy out of his pocket. Never received any pay or compensation for these 175 head of cattle from any service. He knew that Indians took these cattle without seeing them by practice and experience; their manner of committing depredations; and having followed and fought them. Not able to say what particular band took them; they were Apaches, and took into the high mountains South of Camp Grant.

When he stated about a power of attorney, he referred to the power given to her on account of her husband's death. She was acting for him. When he answered the cattle was $35 a head did not look at the figures or words, but answered rapidly. This raid as at Xavier Mission, Pima Co., Arizona. They stole a hundred of cattle in March, 1863, during the night time. He knew how he lost those cattle because he followed and caught up with them--himself and 8 or 9 men. This was the time his brother was shot in the head. They were Apache Indians from Araivaipa. He was in Tucson and word came to him of the loss of the cattle from San Xavier. He got men here and started after them--also his brother Tomas Elias. Followed them to the other side of the San Pedro river on a trail which went to Agua Caliente. They got up that night with the Indians on horseback, the guard that was left behind the robbing Indians which were ahead. They attacked those Indians that night, about 1 1/2 miles from where the robbers were. His brother was shot in the head that night with a bullet. No Indians fell that night. About 100 head of cattle, from the tracks, where lost that night. Knew the number by the trail. Never got any of these cattle back. The Indians split up in different bands. Afterwards got some of the cattle in the Araivaipa Canyon and butchered and ate them--the same campaign. Got 40 then--ate some these and returning and distributed the balance here. Col. Firmens distributed them under martial law. It was during the war. Col. Firmens commanded, and Captain Tidball was with us. Some of those cattle were used by the Government. Capt. Tidball and 25 soldiers were with us. (Objection to question here). The cattle were issued out by the orders of Col. Firmens. He told them that they were his cattle. He (Col.) went right on giving orders to distribute them among the soldiers. Papagos and other people. Witness gave them no permission and protested against it. He also distributed a lot of horses and burros recaptured at that time and he distributed them also. Unable to say how many Indians were in that band at that time. I saw the six that we fought with that night--they lived up at the head of the fields then. They were Apache Indians. Those cattle at that time were worth the same price as those taken in February and the same kind of cattle. This raid was in the county of Pima, Arizona. My calculation was according to the trail, was that they took a 100 head of cattle at that time. (Altercation at this point as to method of examination). Witness wishes to explain a mistake. In March it was 50 head that was stolen; and about the 15th of April the 100 head was taken away and his brother wounded in the head. After his brother was wounded he came back seeing that he could not get the cattle and fearing that his brother would die. After the return these gentlemen got together Papagos, Mexicans and Americans (about 100 of us) and 25 soldiers that Col. Firmens gave us and 8 or 10 pack mules and they left on the 2d of May. On the 7th of May they attacked the ranch and cleaned it out and recaptured these 40 head of cattle. An American died there at the time. That was on the 7th of May. The raid where they (Indians) took the cattle in the first place was about the 15th of April, 1863. Witness lost cattle in March, 1863, by a raid at the San Xavier Mission, Pima County, Arizona. That raid occurred in the night time. He and his brother Tomas was present at that time, but did not catch up with them. The Indians took at the time 50 head of cows and steers, all his. Knew the Indians took them by the mountains and the directions they came and went. We knew where they came from and went. They were Apaches,--Araivaipas and Pinals. Knew they were Apaches by their route and tracks and they killed the cattle as they drove them. These cattle were worth at the time from $25 to $30 or $35 and up. Their average value was the same as the 100 head were worth. Had given the Indians no provocation at that time--it was their custom and habit. A good deal of beef was used here then on account of troops going to Colorado and New Mexico. Never got any of these cattle back.

The 22nd of May, 1867, they were planting 3 miles below camp Grant, he and Jesus M. Elias. On he 20th of May, 3 of the men working for them asked for a settlement for the purpose of coming here to Tucson. There was an old Pinal Indian living there with some children and the commanding officer at Grant had this Indian at the Post. During the time he and his brother were planting the Indian asked permission of the officer to come and live at our place--he wanted to plant a little corn and pumpkins. This old Indian asked permission to come to Tucson with the 3 men whose accounts had been settled, leaving the Indian woman and two children at our ranch. At Canada-del-Oro some Indians attacked this party in the evening and killed the 3 men. Early the next morning the Indian arrived at our camp and appeared to be scared and excited. His moccasins were full of stickers from the grass. He got back on the 22nd of May and my brother and Manuel Coronado got hold of him and asked what was the matter and he told that these men had been killed. The commanding officer sent 15 or 20 soldiers with claimant's brother down to where the dead men were. On the night of the 21st and the morning of the 22nd about 2 or 3 o'clock claimant was wounded in the arm by the Apaches. On attacking party--it was night and he could not tell how many there was--the other men at the ranch was shooting and drove them off. Claimant went up to the hospital where there was a Doctor on account of his wound. On the 30th of the month (May) and before his brother had moved the camp up to the Post. His brother went every morning to the ranch taking care of the crops. Claimant left the hospital in about 15 days. On the 30th of May when they attacked his brother he had five yoke of oxen and seven horses on that ranch. The Indians took 5 of the horses and all of the oxen, leaving 2 horses. At the time claimant was shot he saw what tribe they were. They were Pinals and San Carlos reservation Indians--Apaches. They were in the brush and could not see how many there were--they took the cattle on the 22nd. Those cattle at the time were worth not less than $100 per yoke. One of the horses lost had cost 15 days before $150 in Tucson. Another horse he paid $100 for,--his own saddle horse. The other horses were worth not less than $100 each. They were good saddle horses. The $150 horse was from Texas. He never got any of these horses or cattle back. This occurred 3 miles below Camp Grant, and only 2 men could follow them. It was in the County of Pima, Arizona. There was no provocation for this raid. One man was killed on the 30th and he had formerly been a captive. He was shot by the Apaches--his name was Francisco. There was a raid in April, 1871. They took fifty head of his cattle at night--claimant was at Tucson then and his brother Tomas the young boy was at the ranch. After he informed of the raid he left Tucson with people and went up to the pass the other side of Tongue Verde. Jesus M. Mangia, Tomas Elias and Claimant are all that are left, the others are dead except Zeckendorf who is away. At that time we caught up with the Indians and killed one, Apache; there were four others, Apaches. We got 4 or 5 horses then and 7 head of cattle. We found 4 dead cattle along the trail. The trails were bad and they would shoot or lance them. We found not less than 50 dead cattle up to where we followed them in the mountain. The cattle had been killed the same day, and we could see them travelling very rapidly. He recovered only 7 head of the cattle. This raid occurred in Pima County Arizona. The cattle were worth at that time about $25. They killed 4 oxen worth on an average of $25. they would kill the calves and leave them and continued to kill as they travelled. He had given the Indians no provocation to make this raid. The cattle were all his, and there were 50 found dead and 7 he got back. They overtook them about sundown towards the San Pedro river.

In December, 1860, we were planting wheat a short distance from the hospital at the Novitiate,--the field belonged to his father. Is the evening the cattle were sent to the mountain to feed. His brother Tomas took them. He went out in the morning with meat and men and was waiting for the oxen and his brother came down from the hills and told him that the Indians had stolen the oxen and he was not able to find them. Witness came to town and got 9 men, four brothers and five other men. He found the trail of the Indians and followed it to the edge of the Gila river, us four followed them. The ground was bad and we did not catch up with the Indians. We followed the direction they travelled in, and North of the Pinal Mountains they turned and went that way (indicating). The Indians were on foot and from the direction thinks they were Toutos. Knew they were Toutos because they put an extra toe-piece on their moccasins, and that was the track they left. This was in Pinal Co., Arizona. These oxen were worth not less than $100 per yoke. He never got any of the oxen back and he never gave the Indians any provocation or cause for this raid. He is sure they were worth $100. He has raised, sold and bought oxen and broke and worked them. He had to hire oxen afterwards to finish planting his crop. The raid in 1858 was in April. He was ranching at that time at Silver Lake where the bridge is, about 2 miles from Tucson. He was raising cattle at that time and had about 1,000 sheep and had oxen and cows and a man looking after them. He left the cattle and sheep then, and the calves in a pen, and came in to Tucson. About 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon he started back and met a man and he said the Apaches had taken all the cattle. Claimant returned to Tucson and started out with about 20 men and went about 3 leagues on the road to Paatanno. At that time they took 200 head of cattle belonging to him, and left about 40 calves in the pen. The Apaches took them and he followed them close to Eagle Pass. We found dead cattle as we went along. The men that went with him returned that evening. Claimant returned and offered the people 1/2 of he cattle if they followed the Indians and helped recover the cattle. From his knowledge and experience believed they were Apaches. He had a few more than 200 head and the few were left. There were 12 or 15 Indians on horseback, but they never caught up with them. Knew the number by the tracks of the horses. Cattle of that class at that time were worth not less than $25 to $30. Never gave the Indians any cause or provocation for that raid.--Just their fighting and warring all the time.

During all three raids from 1858 to 1871 these Indians were at war with the people of Tucson and vicinity, and from long before that. Claimant was 20 years old in 1858 and there were always old and practical persons with them following the Indians. Claimant judged by their experience and his own. His experience was from always seeing and being with cattle on the range, and having followed the Indians and seeing their people. He saw them make an attack on Tucson in 1851 and kill a Mexican. He owned the cattle claimed at that time since 1856. The sheep belonged to his father. He bought the cattle by planting and selling wheat and barley and raising cattle. He had accumulated sufficient capital, then 16 years old, to buy 200 head of cattle. He worked for his father till 1856, and his father helped him with what to work, but did not pay him wages. Claimant bought 15, 20 or 25 head of cows and then commenced to raise cattle. Did not own the 200 in 1856, but commenced to buy and raised them. Many of the calves died. We started in the evening after them and the men returned and he came back and left the same night to follow them again. Nine persons went out with him. All are dead except one and he is somewhere around Fort McDowell, Salt River. Could not count the dead cattle as it was night and they were travelling. We reached Tres Alamos about 9 A.M. We never saw the Indians, but their fires and where they had been eating the fresh meat. At that Canyon of Pantano we recovered one cow. The Indians went in the direction of the Graham Mountains, the same route as the Sierra Blanco. The cattle lost at that time were from 2 to 9 years old. They took no sheep. Never had an difficulty with the Indians before they took the cattle. Had a fight with them in 1859 in the Canon del Oro. The raid in 1860 was in December and he lost 12 oxen then--work oxen, and never recovered any of them. Knew the Indians were making raids at that time and all the neighbors where cattle would be stolen turned out and tried to recover them. To protect the cattle we enclosed them in the corrals at night. The cattle taken in 1860 were feeding on the hills then, and not guarded as they had been working all day. Those cattle were worth not less than $100 and were scarce then. Did not see the cattle when taken. Thinks the Toutos took them and not the Pinals. The petition by mistake says Pinal and "Turitos" and should be Toutos. They told Toutos by the shape of the foot of the moccasin. The Pinals do not use the extra piece on the heel and toe of the sole. He saw 4 or 5 tracks with these pieces and others. He lost 50 cattle in March, 1863, and none were recovered. It was night and claimant was not there when they were lost, but followed them to the other side of Tongue Verde, and returned as soon as he saw they could not overtake them. These cattle were worth from $30 to $35 more or less. They were all large cattle and not worth less than stated. The average value was from $30 to $35. There were others at $25. Couldn't state what amount of them might be worth less than $35 as he never got close enough to them to judge. They were on the range and he had a good knowledge of what cattle was worth. Consumption at that time was considerable,--the troops were there and they bought cattle from Sonora for the soldiers. The putting the loss of the 100 head in March, 1863 was a mistake which he remembered as soon as mentioned by his brother and others. He lost 5 yoke in 1867 and five horses. Was sick in the hospital and was notified by others. He lost 4 of the same value, and one from Texas worth $150. The 4 lost were worth $60 a head. $150 was paid for the other and was a fair market value for him. He was between 6 and 7 years old. He was a dark dun horse--saddle horse. All the horses were saddle-horses and some better than others. He never got any of that stock back. There was no reservation then. The stock was not lost on an Indian reservation. His brother and men after he was wounded went up to Camp Grant at night and went down on the ranch to work in daytime. They were afraid to stay on the ranch at night; they took the stock at night and put them in the corral; and the same with the horses. This stock was not taken at night. Claimant was wounded on the 22nd about 2 or 3 in the morning in the arm--was laying in bed when shot. The shot struck the arm and glanced and went in under left arm and came out left shoulder, making 4 perforations. There is no mistake in the petition about the number of horses taken.

The next raid occurred in April, 1871, here at San Xavier. Not less than 50 head of stock was lost then, and we got back 7. They killed them all on the road except 7 head that he recovered. 50 head was the number actually lost, taking out the 7 head that were recovered. They drove away 50 odd head. Claimant did not count any of the dead cattle on the road.--it was his brother that counted them. Claimant left with a party and met him. Of his own knowledge does not know how many were killed; but knows 7 were recovered. That stock was worth not less than $30 or $35 per head. They were worth from $25 up. Cattle were not cheaper than that in 1871. There were no other cattle there then but mine and those of Jose Maria Martinez. Since 1859 claimant had been fighting the Indians and had killed one. They saw me. The Indians seemed to have the same feelings towards everybody,--Americans, Irishmen, Dutchmen, Papagos and Scotchmen. Has not sold this claim. Mrs. Strauss has an interest. (By Claimant's attorney, Mrs. Strauss has a power of attorney.)

Question made and objected to, and answered: Yes, sir interesting her to the amount that she may pay her attornies. She is to receive one-third part of what the Government allows to pay the lawyers that claimant may employ in this case and he has assigned her a one-third interest for that purpose and to pay herself.